Israel at War: It’s a Reckoning
A roundup of news and opinon.
News
CNN (“Israeli defense minister orders ‘complete siege’ of Gaza, as conflict with Hamas enters third day“):
Israel’s defense minister ordered a “complete siege” of Gaza on Monday, as the military said it had retaken control of Israeli communities near the coastal enclave that were stormed by Hamas gunmen in an unprecedented attack over the weekend.
Yoav Gallant said Israel would halt he supply of electricity, food, water and fuel to Gaza. “I have given an order – Gaza will be under complete siege,” Gallant said. “We are fighting barbarians and will respond accordingly.”
Israel has retaken control of all communities around Gaza and there is no ongoing fighting between Israeli forces and Hamas militants inside Israel, the Israeli military said on Monday, following continued assaults by both sides.
[…]
Hamas militants claimed late Sunday to be holding more than 100 hostages in Gaza, including high-ranking Israeli army officers, according to Mousa Abu Marzouk, chief deputy of Hamas’ political bureau.
Videos on social media showed militants capturing multiple civilians, including children, as Israeli families across the nation made anxious pleas for the safe return of their loved ones.
In addition to Israeli captives, there are also other nationalities believed to have been taken hostage, including American, Mexican, Brazilian and Thai nationals – further complicating Israel’s response to the Hamas attack.
Times of Israel (“Defense minister announces ‘complete siege’ of Gaza: No power, food or fuel“)”
Defense Minister Yoav Gallant says he has ordered a “complete siege” of the Gaza Strip, as Israel fights the Hamas terror group.
“I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed,” Gallant says following an assessment at the IDF Southern Command in Beersheba.
“We are fighting human animals and we are acting accordingly,” he adds.
Reuters (“Clashes rage in Israel as Hamas fighters hold out ‘longer than expected’“):
Israel’s troops were battling on Monday to clear out Hamas gunmen more than two days after they burst across the fence from Gaza on a deadly rampage, and the army said it would soon go on the offensive after the biggest mobilisation in Israeli history.
Fighters were still holed up in several locations inside Israel after killing 700 Israelis and seizing dozens of hostages in a raid that shattered Israel’s reputation of invincibility.
In Hamas-controlled Gaza, Israel carried out its most intensive retaliatory strikes ever, killing some 500 people since Saturday. Defence Minister Yoav Gallant said Israel’s blockade would be tightened to prevent food and fuel from being brought into the strip, home to 2.3 million people.
Israel’s chief military spokesman said troops had re-established control of communities that had been overrun, but that isolated clashes continued as some Palestinian gunmen remained active.
“We are now carrying out searches in all of the communities and clearing the area,” chief military spokesperson Rear-Admiral Daniel Hagari said.
Earlier, another spokesman, Lieutenant Colonel Richard Hecht, acknowledged that it was “taking more time than we expected to get things back into a defensive, security posture”.
The shocking images of the bodies of hundreds of Israeli civilians sprawled across the streets of towns, gunned down at an outdoor dance party and abducted from their homes were like nothing seen before in the decades-old Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
Hagari said 300,000 reservists had already been activated in just two days, adding to speculation that Israel could be contemplating an unprecedented ground assault of Gaza, a territory it abandoned nearly two decades ago.
“We have never drafted so many reservists on such a scale,” Hagari said. “We are going on the offensive.”
Palestinians reported receiving calls and mobile phone audio messages from Israeli security officers telling them to leave areas mainly in the northern and eastern territories of Gaza, and warning that the army would operate there.
[…]
Hamas fighters were continuing to cross into Israel from Gaza, the military said, adding that between 70 and 100 gunmen have been killed in the Beeri area since Saturday.
Fighter jets, helicopters and artillery struck over 500 Hamas and Islamic Jihad targets in the Gaza Strip overnight, with targets including Hamas and Islamic Jihad command centres and the residence of a senior Hamas official, Ruhi Mashtaa.
“The price the Gaza Strip will pay will be a very heavy one that will change reality for generations,” Defence Minister Gallant said in Ofakim, one of the towns where calm was restored after a battle with Hamas fighters.
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s options for hitting Hamas, which controls the narrow Gaza Strip that is home to 2.3 million Palestinians, could be curtailed by concern for the many Israelis seized in the raid. A full-scale invasion of Gaza, which Netanyahu has tried to avoid in his long years in power, could endanger the lives of the hostages.
In a statement, the Israeli Air Force said it dropped some 2,000 munitions and more than 1,000 ton bombs on Gaza aimed at over 8,000 targets in Gaza in the last 20 hours. Among the targets were three rocket launchers directed at Israel, a mosque where militants were operating and 21 high-rise buildings that served militant activity.
Since Saturday, at least 493 people were killed and more than 2,750 people were wounded, said the Health Ministry in Gaza.
“The Zionist enemy’s military targeting and bombing of homes inhabited by women and children, mosques and schools in Gaza amount to war crimes and terrorism,” Hamas official Izzat Reshiq said in a statement.
Hamas’s main international ally Iran congratulated Hamas on the attack, while denying involvement. Israeli forces and Lebanon’s Iran-backed Hezbollah militia exchanged artillery and rocket fire.
Appeals for restraint came from around the world, though Western nations largely stood by Israel.
CNN (“At least 4 Americans killed in Israel attacks with death toll expected to rise, Schumer says“):
At least four Americans have been killed in the attacks in Israel, and US officials expect the death toll to rise, Sen. Chuck Schumer said Sunday.
The Senate majority leader said in a statement that he was briefed Sunday evening by senior national security and State Department officials.
“Unfortunately, we know there are Americans who were killed. The Administration told us that they know of four thus far, but, sadly, we know the toll will rise,” Schumer, a Democrat, said in a statement.
Earlier Sunday, Secretary of State Antony Blinken said the US was “working overtime” to verify reports of missing and dead Americans after Hamas launched an unprecedented attack against Israel.
“We have reports that several Americans were killed. We’re working overtime to verify that. At the same time, there are reports of missing Americans and there again, we’re working to verify those reports,” Blinken told CNN’s Dana Bash on “State of the Union.”
CNN reported earlier Sunday that at least three Americans were killed, according to an internal US government memo. The memo said the State Department was aware of additional Americans who have not been accounted for.
CNN has reached out to the State Department for comment.
Israeli Minister of Strategic Affairs Ron Dermer told Bash Sunday that Americans are among the “scores” of hostages being held in Gaza.
The US Embassy in Jerusalem, meanwhile, updated its contingency planning “for any potential evacuation by land or air,” according to the memo. On Saturday, the embassy issued a “shelter in place” order for its personnel.
POLITICO (“At least 2 members of Congress were in Israel during attack“):
Both Rep. Dan Goldman (D-N.Y.), and Sen. Cory Booker (D-N.J.) were in Israel over the weekend while extremist group Hamas launched an unprecedented attack at the country’s border with Gaza. Both congressmen have since left the country, according to their offices.
Goldman was in Israel for a Bar Mitzvah with his wife and three of his children, his spokesperson, Simone Kanter, said. “Congressman Goldman and his family sheltered from Hamas rocket fire in their hotel’s interior stairwell until early Sunday morning, when they were able to safely depart for New York,” Kanter said in a statement.
Booker arrived in Israel on Friday, according to his office, ahead of a summit on the Abraham Accords at which he was scheduled to speak Tuesday.
“Senator Booker and accompanying staff were in Jerusalem when Hamas launched their attacks against Israel on Saturday, and sheltered in place for their safety,” spokesperson Maya Krishna-Rogers said in a statement. “We are grateful that Senator Booker and our colleagues were able to safely depart Israel earlier today.”
The Saturday morning assault blindsided Israeli forces, leaving hundreds dead, wounded and kidnapped, including many civilians. Both congressmen took to social media to condemn Hamas’ actions and offer their support for Israel in the hours and days after the attack.
“At a minimum, Congress must replenish — and expand — the Iron Dome as soon as possible,” Goldman posted on X, formerly Twitter, early Sunday morning, referring to Israel’s defense system against rockets. “I hope Republicans can get their House in order so we can pass emergency legislation to assist Israel in defending herself.”
CNN (“‘Nowhere to go’: Ordinary Palestinians live in fear as Israel retaliates against Hamas“):
When the Palestinian militant group Hamas launched an attack on Israel Saturday morning, Palestinians living in the besieged strip had mixed feelings.
Some celebrated, taking pride in what they perceived as a victory against Israel. Others, however, were afraid, dreading a deadly retaliation.
The militant group’s unprecedented incursion prompted vows of retribution from Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, who declared on Saturday that his country was at war, pledging a “mighty vengeance for this black day.”
Israel’s Minister of Strategic Affairs Ron Dermer told CNN’s Dana Bash on Sunday that more than 600 people have been killed in Israel, and that the death toll is likely to rise.
Israel Defense Forces (IDF) spokesperson Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari said Sunday that Israel destroyed around 800 targets in Gaza, including what he described as launching pads used by Hamas.
At least 413 Palestinians have been killed, including 78 children, the Palestinian Ministry of Health in Gaza said.[…]
The Gaza Strip has been almost completely cut off from the rest of the world for nearly 17 years.
Governed by Hamas since 2007, the enclave is under strict siege by Egypt and Israel, which also maintains an air and naval blockade on Gaza. It has been described by Human Rights Watch as the “world’s largest open-air prison.”
Gazans have seen Israeli strikes ravage the strip on several occasions since Israeli forces withdrew from the territory in 2005. Fighting regularly takes place between Israel and Palestinian factions in Gaza, including Hamas and Islamic Jihad.
Overnight, Israel struck down at least 10 towers in Gaza that it said were used by Hamas, Hagari said Sunday, adding that tens of thousands of Israeli soldiers are operating on the ground around the Gaza Strip.
The IDF on Sunday said it is now focusing on taking control of the Gaza Strip, and urged civilians there to leave residential areas near the border immediately for their safety as Israeli military operations continued to target Hamas.
But most Gazans have no way of fleeing the besieged enclave. All crossings out of the territory are shut, with the exception of the tightly controlled Rafah crossing with Egypt.
Analyses
Lawrence Freedman, Comment is Freed (“Hamas attacks Israel“):
Israel is already hurting Hamas back with air strikes attacking infrastructure. More significantly Gaza is being deprived of much of its electricity and water supplies, and its internet has been hit. IDF Chief Spokesman Brig. Gen. Daniel Hagari told a press conference that airstrikes ‘would significantly intensify and would eliminate all Hamas terror infrastructure, all houses of terror commanders, and all symbols of Hamas’ rule.’ But in the end these are buildings, and new buildings can always be found, and for that matter new fighters and leaders.
It has also called up reservists and appears to be preparing to once again re-enter Gaza. The pressure for it to do so will be considerable, but there are also reasons for caution.
First, Hamas will be prepared. This will be a tough fight. Even a limited incursion could be costly.
Second, the IDF neither has the capacity nor the staying power to take control of Gaza. This remains a territory of 2 million people, and as they have nowhere else to go, they will stay, still angry.
Third, for Israel the greatest danger is that the conflict spreads, stretching the IDF, and the Iron Dome, even more. The Lebanese group Hezbollah has praised the operation, and linked it to attempts by Arab governments to improve relations with Israel. According to its leader Hassan Nasrallah
[…]
If Israel wants to contain the conflict it needs to get it over as soon as possible. For the same reason it will serve Hamas best if it can be kept going, raising emotions throughout the region.
Israel, having concluded that it was secure because it had found ways to contain the Palestinians and then largely ignore them, now discovers that this is not so easy. The international attention these events have gained, and the dangers if the violence continues, may encourage new diplomatic initiatives – the Security Council will meet while US Secretary of State has been in touch with all interested parties other than Hamas – but with so much else going on this is not a propitious time. Perhaps Israel’s new friends in the Gulf will identify a way forward, as the Saudis have tried to do in the past. Perhaps the shock of this latest round of fighting will encourage fresh thinking. It is not as if the history lacks examples of attempts to ease the conflict, some of which made progress.
Local initiatives are more likely. It is hard to see how the hostages can be released safely by a military operation. The Wall Street Journal reports that Egypt has already been asked by Israel to mediate. Egypt was involved with talks underway since May 2021 with Qatar and Hamas (in which Israel has had an input). These were about rebuilding Gaza after past fighting and easing the blockade, in return for a cease-fire. According to Haaretz, they broke down a month ago, when instead of more aid Qatar’s representative in Gaza conveyed only Israel’s warnings against any escalation. These could be revived, although even if a cease-fire now with an easing of the blockade, without Hamas being weakened for the future, would be seen as a defeat for Israel. But if we look back again to 1973 the long-term impact on Israel lay as much in how the fighting started as in how it ended. Being caught out by the first blow was a psychological victory for its adversary and the effects lingered.
The Economist (“The lessons from Hamas’s assault on Israel“):
It is too soon to know how the next few weeks will unfold. Israel’s prime minister, Binyamin Netanyahu, has vowed to exact “a huge price” and he is right: Hamas must be made to pay for its atrocities, which include the massacre of more than 250 young Israelis at a festival in the south. But Israel’s response comes with grave risks. Sending idf ground troops into Gaza could draw them into bloody urban fighting—and endanger the hostages, too. The longer the fighting drags on, the greater the chance that violence spreads to the West Bank or Lebanon. The death of many civilians in Gaza, especially if seen as wanton, would harm Israel’s standing in the world as well as being profoundly wrong in its own terms.
However, it is not too soon to be clear that this attack marks the end of a decades-old belief in Israel that Palestinian aspirations for sovereignty could be indefinitely put aside while the rest of the Middle East forged ahead. Whatever else emerges from this conflict, one thing will be a new search for answers to the question of how Israelis and Palestinians can live in peace.
Mr Netanyahu’s policy of sidelining the Palestinians depended on three calculations, each of which has been thrown up into the air by the Hamas assault. The first is that, even if the Palestinian question was left to rot, Israelis could remain safe. As a result of the terrible casualties of the second intifada, which finished in 2005, Israel shut Palestinian populations away behind security walls. Superior intelligence and overwhelming firepower, including the Iron Dome anti-rocket system, meant that the armed threat from Palestinian fighters was manageable.
That notion now looks broken. One reason the intelligence services may have been distracted from Gaza is that the West Bank has been thrown into disarray by the expansionist aims of Israel’s far right. In southern Lebanon Hizbullah has a fearsome arsenal, much of it supplied by Iran. No doubt, Israel will be able to re-establish its military dominance over the Palestinians. But even if its soldiers and spies believe that this ensures Israeli citizens are protected, voters themselves are unlikely to conclude that a return to the status quo is good enough.
The second assumption was that the existence of Hamas helps Israel deal with Fatah, the Palestinian party that runs the West Bank. It was assumed that divide-and-rule kept the Palestinians weak and that the influence of radical factions would undermine the credibility of moderates as partners for peace—all of which suited Mr Netanyahu just fine.
With these attacks, that notion has also run its course. One reason for Hamas to strike was that divide-and-rule has created the conditions in which Fatah has become decadent and out of touch; its leader, Mahmoud Abbas, is ailing. With this assault, Hamas is claiming to be the true voice of Palestinian resistance. Inter-Palestinian rivalry was supposed to protect Israelis; it has ended up making them targets.
The third assumption was that Israel could strengthen its position in the Middle East by pursuing regional diplomacy even as it left the Palestinians to fester. That view was endorsed by the signing of the Abraham Accords between Bahrain, Israel and the United Arab Emirates in 2020—and the addition of Morocco and Sudan later. Until this weekend, it had looked as if Saudi Arabia might join, too. Eventually, it still may, but Hamas has shown that the Palestinians have a say, too.
The coming operation against Hamas will only add to the sense that the time has come for a new approach. After Saturday’s bloodshed, Israel cannot wreck Hamas only for it to remain in power in Gaza as if nothing had happened.
However, no simple alternative is on offer. The idf does not want to occupy Gaza—that is why the enclave is self-governed. The idea of an international peace-keeping force is also hard to imagine: no country wants to take on the responsibility. And yet, if the idf destroyed Hamas in Gaza and then marched back home again, who knows what destructive forces might fill the vacuum that was left behind.
Nobody should underestimate the difficulties that lie ahead. The second intifada turned young Israelis against talking to the Palestinians. This outrage will surely create a new generation of Israelis who cannot imagine how Palestinian factions could be a partner for peace. At the same time, Israel’s right-wing coalition has been focused on annexing parts of the West Bank. It will redouble these efforts.
Despite that, hard-headed Israelis will need to grapple with the fact that they must once again start to deal with the Palestinian issue. Israel’s security apparatus needs a counterparty to work with if it is to have any sway over the Palestinian territories. That means it needs a Palestinian interlocutor.
Haaretz Editorial Board (“Netanyahu Bears Responsibility for This Israel-Gaza War“):
The disaster that befell Israel on the holiday of Simchat Torah is the clear responsibility of one person: Benjamin Netanyahu. The prime minister, who has prided himself on his vast political experience and irreplaceable wisdom in security matters, completely failed to identify the dangers he was consciously leading Israel into when establishing a government of annexation and dispossession, when appointing Bezalel Smotrich and Itamar Ben-Gvir to key positions, while embracing a foreign policy that openly ignored the existence and rights of Palestinians.
Netanyahu will certainly try to evade his responsibility and cast the blame on the heads of the army, Military Intelligence and the Shin Bet security service who, like their predecessors on the eve of the Yom Kippur War, saw a low probability of war with their preparations for a Hamas attack proving flawed.
[…]
However, the military and intelligence failure does not absolve Netanyahu of his overall responsibility for the crisis, as he is the ultimate arbiter of Israeli foreign and security affairs. Netanyahu is no novice in this role, like Ehud Olmert was in the Second Lebanon War. Nor is he ignorant in military matters, as Golda Meir in 1973 and Menachem Begin in 1982 claimed to be.
Netanyahu also shaped the policy embraced by the short-lived “government of change” led by Naftali Bennett and Yair Lapid: a multidimensional effort to crush the Palestinian national movement in both its wings, in Gaza and the West Bank, at a price that would seem acceptable to the Israeli public.
In the past, Netanyahu marketed himself as a cautious leader who eschewed wars and multiple casualties on Israel’s side. After his victory in the last election, he replaced this caution with the policy of a “fully-right government,” with overt steps taken to annex the West Bank, to carry out ethnic cleansing in parts of the Oslo-defined Area C, including the Hebron Hills and the Jordan Valley.
This also included a massive expansion of settlements and bolstering of the Jewish presence on Temple Mount, near the Al-Aqsa Mosque, as well as boasts of an impending peace deal with the Saudis in which the Palestinians would get nothing, with open talk of a “second Nakba” in his governing coalition. As expected, signs of an outbreak of hostilities began in the West Bank, where Palestinians started feeling the heavier hand of the Israeli occupier. Hamas exploited the opportunity in order to launch its surprise attack on Saturday.
Above all, the danger looming over Israel in recent years has been fully realized. A prime minister indicted in three corruption cases cannot look after state affairs, as national interests will necessarily be subordinate to extricating him from a possible conviction and jail time.
Gidi Weitz, Haaretz (“Another Concept Implodes: Israel Can’t Be Managed by a Criminal Defendant“):
How depressing and upsetting it is today to recall Benjamin Netanyahu’s arrogance under interrogation about Case 2000, one of the three corruption cases against the prime minister. “This is classified, don’t let it leak, okay?” he said, flattering the police investigators with the magic lure of security secrets. And then he explained his doctrine regarding Hamas and Hezbollah.
“We have neighbors,” he said, “who are our bitter enemies … I send them messages all the time … these days, right now … I mislead them, destabilize them, mock them, and them hit them over the head.” The suspect then continued his lecture: “It’s impossible to reach an agreement with them … Everyone knows this, but we control the height of the flames.”
This arrogant worldview, so disconnected from reality, isn’t the only thing that blew up in Netanyahu’s face, and ours, on Saturday morning. The other “concept” that collapsed was one many good people warned about: the idea that the leadership of the state could be entrusted to a criminal defendant.
History will judge everyone who lent a hand to this moral distortion – first and foremost the defendant himself and his fanatic supporters, party colleagues, and partners in the governing coalition, but also the media personalities and jurists who mobilized to kosher this abomination.
[…]
It’s impossible to close your eyes to the reality. There’s a clear connection between the corruption trial, the government’s judicial overhaul, and the greatest failure since the Yom Kippur War of 1973, perhaps even since the establishment of the state.
Admittedly, the intelligence agencies failed inconceivably at foreseeing the actual attack. But they warned Netanyahu time and again in recent months that Israel’s enemies had identified a historic weakness, making the likelihood of war higher than it has been since the Second Lebanon War of 2006.
Yet instead of quelling Justice Minister Yariv Levin, National Security Minister Itamar Ben-Gvir and Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich due to this danger, Netanyahu prioritized ensuring his personal survival and the integrity of his coalition at the price of capitulating to insane, messianic racists. To this end, he turned his domestic rivals into enemies and systematically destroyed the connective tissue that, with great difficulty, held Israel society together.
He and his partners in this criminal organization forgot that Israel isn’t Poland or Hungary, but first and foremost a country deeply embroiled in a national conflict. Consequently, it doesn’t have the privilege of entertaining itself with dictatorial games.
My Take
I have very little to add to my analysis of yesterday. Regardless of Netanyahu’s culpability in setting up the conditions for the attack, the manner of it—the wanton slaughter of innocents and taking of hostages—has outraged Israel and much of the Western world. I’m reminded of the Doc Holliday line from Tombstone: “Oh, make no mistake, it’s not revenge he’s after, it’s a reckoning.”
My prediction that the IDF will try to retake Gaza has already come true. But I trust Freedman’s assessment that they lack the resources to do so, much less keep it. It’s not at all clear to me what the end game for either side is.
Alas, my prediction that Israel will wantonly commit war crimes has also come true. They’re deliberately bombing civilian infrastructure and cutting off water and electricity. As awful as it is, it’s not obvious what the alternative is when the enemy is ensconsed among the civilian population in densely a packed urban environment. That the defense minister is referring to the Gazans as “human animals” is not a hopeful sign.
That Americans are among both the dead and the hostages shouldn’t come as a surprise. A great number of American Jews are dual citizens, either in fact or in practice. But it certainly further complicates our policy calculations.
I’m not certain how much of a reach it is, but there are assertions that the intelligence that allowed Hamas to breach the “Iron Dome” came from Iran, who likely got it from the Russians – who likely got it from Donald Trump as part of his naive sharing of national security documents with the Russians.
Whether true or not, the fact that Trump betrayed national security means that any breach of security in the near future can be reasonably pinned on him to some degree.
And some percentage of the country still thinks this guy is fit to serve as POTUS.
And then what?
There are only 3 outcomes to the Israel/Palestine question, with two offering the possibility of a peace interrupted by occasional violence. A viable two state solution that will require a portion of the Israeli populace to give up the dream of a greater Israel from the Mediterranean to the Jordan River. A unified, non-sectarian democracy, i.e. Israel no longer would be a Jewish state. An apartheid state, which would be a guarantee of continued violence.
Some may offer the solution of ethnic cleansing, with Israel driving out the Palestinians into Jordan and Lebanon. How long would it take for the already shaky, Jordanian monarchy to fall and for the precarious political balance in Lebanon to be upset by Hezbollah not reinforced by a radical Palestinian populace seeking revenge. All backed by Syria and Iran, with Russia lurking in the background.
@Tony W: I think that’s beyond a stretch. Honestly, I don’t think Trump is smart enough or was interested enough in his intelligence briefings to provide much in the way of useful information even if he wanted to.
@Sleeping Dog: We’re very much in agreement. But this is very much driven by emotion: rage and hate. There is no solution, although I think the Netanyahu government may give genocide a shot.
The world has mostly ignored the Palestinians. There was next to no coverage on the recent conflicts in the West Bank and the expansion of settlements. As the Economist article pointed out the Abraham Accords ignored them. (I was assured by analysts that they were a big step forward. Maybe, but the issue has always been the Palestinians so I failed to see how making “peace” with several far away countries did very much.) Of note is that Israel has been unwilling to consider loosening the blockade in exchange for peace assurances.
I think Israel goes in and, justifiably, kills a lot of people, trying to but failing to eliminate all of Hamas. I then expect Israel to make the blockade even harsher. How many people know that fuel is so restricted that many people in Gaza rely upon donkeys for transportation, and that those occasionally also get blockaded? They then go back to “ignoring” the Palestinians. The end game looks pretty clear. Israel will occupy the entire West Bank and Gaza walled off forever. No two state solution, that disappeared long ago. Once the Palestinians have essentially been eliminated from the West Bank Israel can concentrate more troops around Gaza. Until then there will be occasional attacks out of Gaza.
Steve
There needs to be a reckoning on many sides.
Israel needs to come to a conclusion as to what it is- a secular European-type nation where people of all religions are equal, or a theocratic imperial power where Palestinians are a subjugated second class? The behavior of the Netanyahu government doesn’t give much hope.
Palestinians need to answer the same questions as to what such a place as “Palestine” would look like- Hamas’s vision doesn’t give much hope.
@James Joyner: I am not in any way suggesting that Trump knew what he was doing.
I think he’s a selfish idiot who doesn’t care one way or another what happens to people damaged by his dangerous disclosure of classified material, as long as he gets his quid pro quo from the transaction.
He and the rest of his Klan would be laughed out of the room if he applied for a security clearance – he is a cartooonish caricature of those videos they make you watch every year about OPSEC.
But, again, here we are.
@Sleeping Dog: Yes, and maybe this is naive of me, but I can’t imagine that trying to excuse a genocide with a genocide that happened 100 years ago will work. What happened to “Never again?”
The IDF can’t retake Gaza because they haven’t taken it over before. In 2014 for a month they made incursions but it was not at all a takeover, and Hamas did not lose any control. Maybe the IDF can sweep in this time and destroy Hamas. Given that they suffered the biggest surprise attack in the country’s history they are starting with a losing hand.
This will be bad for Gazans, obviously. But Hamas could very well emerge as the undeclared victor with an Israeli government trying to pawn off operating whatever as a victory. You can’t talk about genocide or ethnic cleansing and call everyone animals who deserve nothing but death and then produce the status quo. And you can’t ask the military to wish to engage in a long counter-insurgency campaign in a small of 2 million people all of whom hate you.
As far as genocide goes–how does that even happen? Are they going to starve 2 million people (half of whom are children) to death? Or are they going to train some death squads to perform mass killings? And even if you are for genocide having it out in the open like this and undeniable is not what the Nazis or the Soviets did. We have entire ideologies about modern society based on the ‘good’ people doing their jobs as cogs without knowing/admitting what the job is. Reagan’s entire strategy in Central America was based on death squads, and that’s like a minor fact for his idiot fans, and China has an empire of euphemism around the Uighurs. The doers of these crimes cover them up so they don’t exist in real time.
James wrote:
I suspect that the IDF, which sure seems to be preparing for a ground invasion, will have the capacity to “take” Gaza. Though to both of your points, I don’t think they have the ability or will to hold it (and again, I think history, in particular recent history, proves how difficult this is for any modern state to do, regardless of resources).
And, that could be part of Hamas’s overall strategy.
There was a Twitter thread from Scholar Christopher Jones that I find a compelling explanation of why, contrary to people who are arguing this is a “suicidal” action, Hammas’s strategy makes sense in the overall historical context. Then again, following Daniel Larison, I am a firm believer that “suicidal states” are more or less a fiction created by people who don’t want to try and seriously consider alternative understandings of a given situation.
@James Joyner:
Sadly we are in agreement about that. And there have already been open calls
in the Israeli right-wing pressfor exactly this (not to mention in American right-wing and White Christian Nationalist circles).[Update: I misread a comment and mistook an editorial published and then retracted by The Times of Isreal, after a previous 2014 war, as having been recently published. I retract that part of the statement. For more details and context as to that article, see this report from Vox:
https://www.vox.com/2014/8/1/5959635/heres-the-full-text-of-the-deleted-time-of-israel-post-backing ]
It will be also important to watch what happens in the occupied territories where settler attacks on Palestinian enclaves were already on a rapid rise prior to this event: https://www.ochaopt.org/content/displacement-palestinian-herders-amid-increasing-settler-violence
I really don’t like to delve into messy, morally ambiguous, complicated situations, where the only clear solutions involve Doc Brown’s DeLorean.
This was a tactically brilliant attack by Hamas. Strategically it was irrelevant. Hamas has no achievable goals so whatever they imagine their strategy to be, they’re trippin’.
There’s no question that Israel can ‘win,’ the question is can they win in a way that they can stomach? Because Israel can right now, today, begin the process of starving everyone in Gaza. They have the raw power to starve 2 million people to death. I always like to know the potential – setting morality aside. Imagine the Israelis are commanded by Genghis, would anyone doubt for a minute that Gaza was doomed?
It’s not a question of capability, it’s a question of will. Just as when people said we couldn’t win in Afghanistan. Same set-up: imagine Genghis with nukes. Anyone want to bet on the Afghans?
Neither we nor Israel lack capacity to win, we just can’t win within the constraints of civilization. But civilization’s limits can be breached. Had you asked Americans in, say, 1935, whether they would be willing to drop napalm on Japanese cities and burn men, women and children alive, very few people would have been okay with that. A few years later no one said a word.
Israel is only impotent if they operate within constraints they agree to. They’re a nuclear power. One bomb dropped on Gaza City. . .
It should be noted that Israel is now at war. They haven’t been in declared war since 1973. That war was decidedly different than the self-defense actions Israel has taken in the intervening years. So few really have an idea of what this war will be like. And Netanyahu is going to be pilloried by left in the media and West regardless so there is no reason for him to go half measures.
The anti-semitism in the West is on open display. The Palestinians are third world and can’t be held to standards of human decency. Jews in Israel are to be held to a standard higher than that of the US or Western Europe warfighting, though neither of those entities have been in a war for survival since 1946, unlike Israel.
The gnostic religion of the National Socialists is revived with many commenters continue the assertion of the Nazis that the Jews are a threat to civilization. That Israel exists is a direct repudiation of that religion and that the believers cannot abide.
@JKB:
Murc’s law for the Levant: Only Jews have agency. (For proof, I offer this entire thread).
@JKB: Wow, the casual racism here is fucking amazing:
@David Anderson:
That’s not me saying that, that is the Left, the Democrats who refuse to condemn these atrocities. All we see is apologists who would not say the same about Israel or a first world country.
As I’ve noted before, Hamas deliberately ensconcing itself among the civilian population is, itself, a war crime.
And so far, I haven’t seen Israel “wontonly” committing war crimes in Gaza. They are using similar tactics as in the past – “roof knocks” to provide a warning when a building will be destroyed so people can evacuate – including Hamas—announcing where it will be conducting operations in advance and warning civilians that it will be attacking Hamas in that area and to avoid Hamas.
That many Palestinians are still killed is primarily the result of Hamas’ “ensconcing” itself as well as the inherent nature of urban warfare.
And yes, there aren’t many alternatives. I’m not sure what more Israel can do to attack Hamas while killing fewer civilians given the realities of the situation. But I think you should be more cognizant of the fact that hiding fighters behind civilians and hostages is going to cause more civilian casualties and is also a war crime.
As for my personal assessment, I’m depressed. Like the Ukraine war, I don’t see either side winning, rather, everyone will lose. I don’t know how this ends.
I have serious doubts that Israel can weed out Hamas and related groups from Gaza, and I think the analysis you quoted is correct that accomplishing that would just create a power vacuum that will likely be filled with a new extremist government.
The fantasy outcome is similar to the fantasy outcome in Ukraine – some more moderate group in Gaza will usurp Hamas. But that is an even more unrealistic fantasy than it is for Russia and Putin. Hamas has ruled with an iron fist for almost two decades, killing anyone who opposes them, and there is no opposition to be had, much less one that could challenge them.
@charontwo: If we are to support a country, there must be a reason. “No worse than anyone else in the Middle East”, hardly qualifies.
@mattbernius:
The West Bank and Gaza are separate problems. The settler/ultra-Orthodox/Netanyahu goals in the West Bank are intolerable, Netanyahu is getting a lot of resistance to them.
@Andy: What about cutting off food and medical supplies to 2 million people? Do you have a rationale for why this doesn’t constitute a war crime?
There are war criminals on every side in this, and moderates are long gone.
@MarkedMan:
Actually it does, especially if you take into account where Iran is going with all this.
@James Joyner:
There is very likely to be a unity government soon. Netanyahu’s cronies do not have the experience to run the first major war since 1973, and most of the senior officials that do are probably not on board with genocide are aligned with the opposition. Netanyahu will have less authority under a unity government and he’s also politically weakened by his decision to leave the Gaza area entirely unprotected, along with the complete failure to see this attack coming. I tend to think his political career will be over. It’s one thing to survive corruption scandals, it’s quite another to politically survive the fallout from the worst and most gruesome attack on Israeli civilians in 75 years.
@mattbernius:
Thanks for linking that analysis – I think it is largely correct.
I think Gaza is (and always has been ) a problem that Israel can’t solve. The leadership in Gaza is opposed to the existence of Israel and a two-state solution. And they are also opposed to Fatah, the Palestinian leadership in the West Bank. Hamas murdered all remnants of Fatah in Gaza in 2006 and still sees them as their primary rival as the true representative of Palestinian interests. Part of this may be about that rivalry which shows Hamas will go to extremes while Fatah is weak.
At my point, my pure speculation is that Hamas, or a successor, survives. I don’t see any way that Israel can ensure Gaza is ruled either democratically or by a less extreme regime. So I expect that Israel will destroy what they can of Hamas, and then build an armed Korea-style DMZ along the border and pass off responsibility Gaza to Egypt.
@MarkedMan:
It is not a war crime to not give your enemy, in a declared war, aid and comfort from your own resources. One expects that shortly, the UN will have to take over the receipt and transport of food and medical supplies that enter Israeli ports. Or perhaps Hamas will open ports in their territory but then they have the naval blockade. Or such supplies will be moved though the restricted border crossing with Egypt. But nothing says Israel must supply their enemy in a declared war, the exception being in territory and people who come under the control of the warring party. Hamas is responsible for the people in their territory.
@JKB:
Show me a single Democrat who refuses to condemn Hamas. Who are these fantasy Lefties? That ‘some people say’ bullshit only works for MAGAts.
I’m not going to vouch for the exact veracity of the math here, but I suspect this is acurate and maybe useful in conceptualizing stuff.
https://mapfight.xyz/map/gaza/
@JKB: please name names. It’s always convenient to say “The Democrats,” but who, specifically, is not condemning the attack? Randos on Twitter don’t count. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, and Ilhan Omar have, they’ve just pointed out the same thing others have, that this is part of a cycle of violence. Neither side’s strategy is helping things.
Rashida Tlaib could have been better, but she is the child of Palestinian refugees.
Or is this like the thousands of Muslims in New Jersey who cheered for 9/11?
Either way, did the US response to 9/11 make things better?
@JKB:
God, you are so full of shit. Beyond the far-left folks like members of the Squad the majority of Democrats have explicitly come out against what happened in support of Israel?
And, in fact you are so full of shit, the noted leftists at the National Review are willing to document how full of shit you are. And note the issue wasn’t The Squad supporting Hamas, it’s their denouements were EQUIVOCATING and seen as too much “both sides.”
https://www.nationalreview.com/news/reprehensible-and-repulsive-democrats-condemn-the-squad-for-equivocating-on-hamas-terrorism/
From those noted NR left-wing hacks:
Meanwhile here are examples of other reports on statements from many Democratic leaders:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/israel-attack-hamas-gaza-united-states-leaders-support/
From said article, here’s the leader of the Democratic party:
Senate Majority Leader Schumer:
Elsewhere, House Minority Leader Jefferies on CNN
Or is your notion of “support” actively advocating for Palestinian Genocide and letting Bibi do whatever he wants?
Also for extra points, compare that unity on the issue to the GOP response to all things Ukraine. Because its yet another huge difference between the parties at the moment.
@MarkedMan:
I’m not an expert on LOAC, but here is my understanding:
Countries at war are not obligated to provide each other with food and medical supplies.
However, it would be a war crime if Israel intentionally took actions to starve the population by preventing imports of food and medicine from third parties, or by attacking stores of food and medicine in Gaza, or by attacking facilities that produce food or medicine.
Of course, if Hamas sets up a rocket system on top of a food or medical warehouse, then Israel has the right to attack that rocket system, even if it means the warehouse would be damaged or destroyed. Because, as previously discussed, using protected infrastructure to avoid attack is a war crime and negates the protected status – or rather, it doesn’t prevent a combatant from attacking the legitimate military target located there.
And there are exceptions. For example, foodstuffs used purely by the armed forces are legitimate targets for attack – like a military warehouse with military rations.
Now, if Israel should occupy Gaza or portions of Gaza, then it would be required to provide both to the occupied population.
@Kevin: Never again only means never again to us, sadly.
@MarkedMan:
Every side in a war inevitably commits war crimes. That much is obvious. That doesn’t mean we just throw up our hands with the “both sides” equivocating you keep doing. If you can’t see the very obvious difference in degree between the legality of how Hamas “fights” and how Israel fights, then I don’t know what to tell you. Hamas, as a matter of tactics and goals, intentionally seeks to kill civilians in multiple different ways. Israel is not anywhere close to that. There’s an argument that Israel doesn’t take sufficient measures to protect civilians in its attacks on Hamas, but Israel’s goal and methods aren’t the wholesale murder of civilians – it’s to attack Hamas. To equivocate about this is mindboggling.
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/was-there-a-warning
[…]
[…]
Note this point:
The version I’ve seen is pretty much the entire IDF in the West Bank with Israel proper left defenseless.
@Michael Reynolds: While you do love making easy statements on the nuclear scenarios, you should pause for a moment with the phrases “prevailing wind patterns” and “fallout” – then reflect on what territory borders Gaza on three sides.
@Andy: While your objection has foundations, with all due respect, the implicit idea that Israeli forces show any great or particular concern relative to Palestinian civilian causalties is rather risable. The practical difference is Hamas is actively barbaric, Israel relative to the Palestinians is barbaric via indifference – the Israeli defence statement quoted, “human animals” says out loud a profound racism on the Israeli right that walks right up to the type of thinking that led to the Holocaust. (this not to confuse I will insists with general views, rather specifically on the hard side of the Israeli right that Netanyahu has enabled over the years).
@Lounsbury:
Well, I look at actions and not words. The fact of the matter is that Israel is currently providing warnings to the civilian population in Gaza before its attacks – something that honestly surprised me as I expected they would operationalize the words you quoted, which is the opposite of what Hamas does, BTW. If more information comes out that Israel is directly targeting civilians, then I will change my view.
And no one has yet indicated what more Israel should do to protect civilians in its war with Hamas. Let’s hear exactly what Israel should be doing that it is not doing.
@Lounsbury:
Air blast, dude. Pop it off at the right altitude you get much less fallout. But bear in mind, I’m not recommending it.
In any fraught situation I start from what is physically possible, then add in factors like morality, knock-on consequences, cost, etc… I start with the bright, clear line from A to Z. When I have a noisy neighbor I start from, “Well, I could burn his house down,” and then walk it back and do something more moderate. It’s reassuring to know what I could do. And it’s a very useful approach to writing action scenes.
ETA: I just checked and prevailing winds in the Levant are east to west. So, Cypriots would want to hold their breaths.
Scrambling. How will the NY Times and MSNBC cover this
ADL’s Jonathan Greenblatt blasted MSNBC, on-air, for their biased coverage. Democrats are going to be running hard to correct as the Jewish community in the US is not having their dissembling in favor of Hamas.
Man @JKB I hope you don’t throw your back out given how quickly you had to move those goal posts given your initial statement “That’s not me saying that, that is the Left, the Democrats who refuse to condemn these atrocities.” was proven so demonstratively wrong.
Also love the “let me switch to a future ‘what if’ scenario.”
Also, if you are using the ADL to prove your point about “the left,” then can I take it you also agree with them about Twitter/X under Elon Musk contributing to antisemitism? Or that Young Right-Wing Americans Forging Ties with European Ethno-Nationalists? Or in that they think Trump is stoking Anti-Semitism?
Or is this the usual case where you only think they are credible when they say something you agree with? Asking for a friend…
Anyway… You are an inspiration to people with brainworms everywhere. Keep up the great work pwning us sheeple.
This is a hard line to walk. Clearly the crimes being committed are awful and should be condemned. There is no justifying mass rapes and killing of children. These are Russian level tactics. Clearly Israel is justified in responding with military action. Despite any efforts they make they are also going to kill women and children. It’s largely going to be accidental, but they will still be dead, and likely a lot more of them as part of Israeli policy is that their military response will be overwhelmingly disproportionate.
That said, in this war, in any war, you have to look at the events that lead up to it. Part of the reason Israel didnt have troops (enough troops) to guard the 4 crossings is that they were using them to help advance more settlement in the West Bank. They are pushing towards the settlement of the entire West Bank. That was barely covered by any media. Then you have the years and years of the blockade in Gaza resulting in Gaza having the highest or among the highest unemployment rates in the world. That is barely covered in the media. When Israel arbitrarily denies some shipments just because they can or because some Gaza official pisses them off that doesnt get covered. There has been some minimal coverage about Netanyahu leading the effort to make their government more right wing, but the fact that this also means more pro-settler and more anti-Palestinian gets little mention. So some of the world class poor conditions goes to Hamas, Israel doesnt escape blame too. Combine the chronic poverty of Gaza and the next stage of eliminating Palestinians from the West Bank and a military response was hardly unlikely.
A military response but not the barbaric attacks we have seen. Even if you are inclined towards sympathy for the Palestinians you have to condemn these attacks. OTOH, I think you also have to admit that the Israeli efforts will be the same as the past, just killing more people. The blockade will be even harsher. You get another generation of young men without jobs who are willing to die and kill. I dont se any good way out of this.
Steve
@charontwo: So we’re back to “yes, he’s a bastard, but he’s our bastard?
“And the beat goes on (and on and on and on [fade out])
@JKB:
I am continually amazed at how many regular posters on this site do not understand the difference between an explanation and an excuse.
@Andy:
Honestly, this would be the best possible outcome, though I wonder how long it will take to get to it.
@DrDaveT:
Especially individuals who constantly try to explain why slavery was ok and was better as an institution than communism and socialism.
Though in retrospect, that might actually be more of an excuse.
@JKB: It’s really easy to hold yourself morally superior to someone who only exists your imagination.
@steve:
This is true, but what led to that? And what was the situation before?
This is why I think of time machines when faced with these kinds of problems.
@Just nutha ignint cracker:
Bullshit.
@Just nutha ignint cracker:
Self-righteous moral superiority, easiest thing there ever was.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/how-israel-was-duped-hamas-planned-devastating-assault-2023-10-08/
[…]
Color me unclear what the strategic objective is here. I can see what Iran and Russia get out of this, but where is the worthwhile objective for Palestinians?
@JKB:
So your takeaway from this horrible tragedy is, “Let’s try to trigger the libs.”
Moron.
@Andy:
On the subject of who HAMAs respects, or at least feels a need to respect, some info I came across while trying to figure out Gaza’s economy, an apartment building completed but unoccupied because of political infighting.
HAMAs has killed off all the “competition” except the Palestinian Authority. Perhaps because all those construction projects being funded by the Gulf States, Egypt, et al had that respect as a condition for funding.
@Michael Reynolds: “Neither we nor Israel lack capacity to win, we just can’t win within the constraints of civilization. But civilization’s limits can be breached.”
And quite possibly that was one goal of the attack — as with so many terrorist operations (including 9/11), the goal is to get the enemy to overreact, either to bog itself down in an endless, unwinnable war, as we did, or maybe just to act so brutally as to lose the world’s sympathy.
Wouldn’t be surprised if there was an element in Hamas that gets pretty sick of Israel being portrayed as the world’s good guy, given their origin in the Holocaust. So get their government to start implementing its own genocidal campaign and you win.
@JKB: At the risk of being sent off to moderation forever:
Just fuck off and die right now, you ignorant piece of shit.
@anjin-san:
To be fair, that is what most Republican Presidential Primary candidates are doing too.
So lack of class recognize lack of class.
@Andy:
I notice you are very careful to talk only about illegal methods of waging war, but elide over the decades that Israel has been violating international law on the occupation, the confiscation of land and the building of settlements. And before you repeat Israel’s justification for these violations, “but, security!”’ The lie is given to that by the settlements. Those demonstrate that the motivation is to take the land and drive the Palestinians out.
Any hope on the Palestinian side died when Arafat refused turned his back on the two state solution. The barbaric Hamas was the outcome of that. Any hope on the Israeli side died with the assassination of Rabin by fanatical settler factions. Those factions have now been brought into the government and given prestigious positions by Netanyahu.
The justifications you are using are exactly how the right justified supporting apartheid South Africa. “They are like us and share our values and the ANC are terrorists and monsters”. Now, I’m not equating the ANC and Hamas. If Hamas were to come to power it would be genocide. But the Israelis also have decades of blood on their hands.
There are no good guys and there is nothing we can do. We should wash our hands.
Things can get worse.
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/israel-strikes-inside-lebanon-after-ground-incursion
@DrDaveT:
We all understand.
It’s called “dishonesty.”
I agree with this part of the Economist’s analysis
“Sidelined” is quite the euphemism. “Stored in giant internment camps, under a blockade, with crippling unemployment and poverty, and with no say in the long term status that might alleviate these conditions” might be more accurate.
Note that this policy has been in place for 20 years.
Note also that the state of Israel has a population of 9M that it is willing to claim, and 4M inhabitants of the occupied territories.
The killings by Hamas are brutal, savage, horrific, etc… but what did anyone think would happen?
It’s not “Murc’s Law of the Levant” or antisemitism or racism of low expectations to point out that Israel created the current status quo decades ago and decided to rely upon containment.
Only the state of Israel has agency because they have stripped away the agency of the Palestinians. Except that now the Palestinians have grasped at what agency they could, and people don’t like that.
This attack, or one similar, was inevitable.
If the people in the occupied territories were Christians, then all those trying to find a way to support the state of Israel would be calling the Palestinians freedom fighters and looking for ways to justify the tactics of the attack.
An Israeli general:
https://twitter.com/NirACohen77/status/1711447866726666597
@Gustopher:
Murc’s law is precisely your position, just as you have just posted.
@MarkedMan:
I find a lot of the “what is and isn’t a war crime” discussion to have a certain element of “he’s an ephebophile, not a pedophile”.
If you’re willing to say “well, what can Israel do other than blockade Gaza to keep weapons out, there are no good options” then I think you also have to say “well, what can Palestinians do other than resort to terrorism, there are no good options.”
They’re all killing civilians. (Or fucking minors, in the pedo analogy)
(Also, the blockade hasn’t kept weapons out — I guess Hamas doesn’t have tanks and helicopters, so it’s been somewhat effective)
@MarkedMan:
I find a lot of the “what is and isn’t a war crime” discussion to have a certain element of “he’s an ephebophile, not a pedophile”.
If you’re willing to say “well, what can Israel do other than blockade Gaza to keep weapons out, there are no good options” then I think you also have to say “well, what can Palestinians do other than resort to terrorism, there are no good options.”
They’re all killing civilians. (Or fucking minors, in the pedo analogy)
(Also, the blockade hasn’t kept weapons out — I guess Hamas doesn’t have tanks and helicopters, so it’s been somewhat effective)
@MarkedMan:
This must be ignored by those who fear discussion of Netanyahu’s inhumane and illegal Palestine policies — a harder task now that respected and prominent Israeli Jews themselves are also now publicly blaming Netanyahu for his role in aiding and abetting Hamas terrorism.
The United States, the United Nations, Israel’s other allies, the Red Cross, Human Rights Watch, other human rights orgs have spent years warning the chosen course was an impediment to lasting peace and security — enabling Hamas, empowering Palestinian extremists, creating a generation of angry and unemployed and hopeless Palestinian youth, while killing and traumatizing tens of thousands of Palestinians (not a war crime because only white lives matter).
Israel was begged to instead commit to a two-state solution, stop the illegal settlements, and empower Palestinian moderates by helping to improve the human rights and humanitarian situation in the West Bank.
But Netanyahu, his enablers, his rightwing religious extremists said they knew better; that occupation, settlements and blockade were necessary to Israel’s security; that anyone who disagreed hates Jews.
Except now Jews are facing the worst attack in recent memory. Israel is less secure than ever. Netanyahu failed.
But we’re supposed to pretend we just don’t know what could have been done differently. Please.
One, stop re-electing Netanyahu, a corrupt, racist, rightwing thug who Haaretz quotes as saying: “Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas. This is part of our strategy.”
Two, maybe after the Hamas terrorists are defanged and punished, Israel should try listening to its main ally instead of watonly accusing those who want to see Israel and Palestine at peace of antisemitism.
Don’t you know it’s antisemitic to say this, and that the blood of brown kids is irrelevant?
@charontwo: I see that you disagree. I’m only reflecting back what your statement sounded like to me. Still, hold on tight to your dream.
@Just nutha ignint cracker:
I can only guess who might be the bastard you are calling “my bastard.”
May I point out that it’s possible to support Israel while hating Netanyahu, the settler movement, and Likud policies in general. As well as hating other bad actors like Ben Gabir, Smotrich etc.
There are plenty of Christian zealots, Republican chauvinists etc. who actually like and support such people. I don’t see why I need to be your punching bag or voodoo doll stand-in for them.
It should be noted, this attack also reveals the current state of the US intel community. They knew nothing.
Here is the Jake Sullivan just a week before this attack purposely remarking on the US intel community being clueless in the Middle East
@JKB:
Perhaps US intel would know more if they had more personnel in the area. So it would help if Republicans would stop aiding the enemies of America by blocking military and diplomatic appointments, including Biden’s nominee for Israeli ambassador.
Would also help if Trump hadn’t been compromising intel sources by leaking national security info all over the place, including leaking Israeli defense intel to Russia, an ally of Iran and Hamas. But unfortunately, conservative hero and GQP frontrunner Trump has undermined American intelligence gathering and publicly stated hid belief that Putin is more trustworthy than US intelligence.
However, since Trump’s good buddy Netanyahu is on record in 2019 publicly admitting his strategy of undermining a two-state solution and secular Palestinian leadership by instead propping up, funding, and empowerimg Hamas — I’m not sure how much extra intel was needed.
@MarkedMan:
Yes, because it’s been the laws of armed conflict that we’ve been discussing, to include your idea that “weak” combatants ought not to be as restricted from killing civilians and putting them in harm’s way because…fairness? And your attempts to suggest “both sides” are committing war crimes, so we should just walk away.
And now you bring up Israel’s illegal actions in domains other than the conduct of combatants in war, and then accuse me of carefully avoiding those and eliding those topics. Well, my response to that is multi-part:
– First, maybe I missed something, but I don’t think you’ve brought up or asked about my opinions on settlements and other Israeli violations, so I am hardly eliding those topics.
– Second, not having actually requested my opinion and accusing me of eliding the topic, you jump to presuming that I “will repeat Israel’s justifications.” That you make this dumb assumption says more about you than it does about me, because I do not, will not, and have not defended Israel’s activities related to taking Palestinian land for settlements, particularly in recent years under the present Israeli government.
I could go into more detail on my views on this – which are not friendly to the right-wing in Israel, but I think it’s beside the point, and I don’t see why I should spend my time doing that for someone who brought this up as an incorrect and uncharitable assumption.
– Third, you are equivocating again. Since you don’t seem to understand even the fundamental principles, let me explain it to you again. The laws of armed conflict apply to all combatants. Nothing therein remotely suggests that engaging in the kind of intentional murderous brutality that’s occurred over the last couple of days can ever be justified by any other actions. And this works both ways. Hamas intentionally murdering a couple of hundred people at a music festival doesn’t give Israel or anyone any right to murder any other innocents as retribution.
The rest of your comment is more bothsides equivocating nonsense. You obviously can’t legitimately compare the conduct of Hamas and Israel when it comes to war, especially considering recent events, so you go spelunking for illegal and bad things Israel has done to justify your equivocation and swing the ledger to your preferred argument. Well, I don’t buy it. And the problem with such spelunking, is that one can also name all the other illegal stuff Hamas and Israel’s enemies have done in a tit-for-tat fashion. If you want to engage in that in your pursuit of equivalence between Hamas and Israel, do it without me, I’m not interested.
My view is nothing – NOTHING justifies what Hamas did from a moral standpoint, and it’s incontrovertibly the case that there is no legal justification.
And you know who else has decades of blood on their hands? The United States! Your country. I guess that means we shouldn’t complain the next time some evil group butchers a bunch of our citizens. After all, we have blood on our hands too, so it’s only fair that our enemies should get their pound of flesh, right?
Many – if not most – countries in the world at some point in their history have blood on their hands. I guess that means we are all justified in murdering civilians now, even if just a little bit?
I know you wish it were otherwise, but the laws of armed conflict apply to everyone at all times, and there isn’t any kind of exception that allows you, me, Hamas, or Israel to discard them because we can conveniently point to some historical atrocity committed by an enemy. If one has two brain cells, it should be obvious why there are no such exceptions, and allowing them for the reasons you’ve cited would make them meaningless and bring about more death to the innocent in the future.
@Gustopher:
If the laws of war developed after WW2 are inconvenient for you, then take it up with the Hague and not me. Or at least educate yourself so you know what you’re talking about.
@JKB:
My dude… internet commentator… fellow bipedal carbon-based lifeform… let’s have a talk:
First, let me admit I’ve been snarky with you. Ok, a lot. I try my best, but you push my buttons. Seriously. And honestly, that’s my problem, not yours. And it still colors my responses to you. I need to work on that.
That said, it’s totally OK to be wrong about things. Or admit you engage in hyperbole. Seriously, it’s the internet–everyone does it. Likewise, it’s ok to say you didn’t speak before checking things–hell, I did it earlier in this very thread. There is nothing wrong with saying “I was wrong”–it’s a skill I am practicing (and I encourage everyone too).
And, changing the subject, when you have no response is simply not a good look. I mean, this is the interwebz and no one can make anyone else say “I was wrong” but man… totally jumping tracks, well it smells of desperation.
This gets us to:
You’re right. Totally agree. And I guess my question is: so what? Seriously, can you tell us why this matters? I mean, I get what you are trying to do–Biden bad and senile, Trump good and virile. But do you really believe that?
Beyond those broad strokes, is your supposition that we should know everything? That we should have known about this attack, which you have gone to painstaking lengths to point out was not directed at our nation? Or that we should have known about this when apparently Israel’s own intelligence community was caught flat-footed about this?
Look, we all know your axe to grind–you think that career bureaucrats in the intelligence community are out to get you or people like you. Perhaps you think that their failure to identify an attack on another country–heck ostensible ally–somehow proves you right (or that we can’t trust their assessments of former Presidents who are running for office again). But seriously, does that make real sense (i.e. are we, following scripture, our brother’s keepers to this level? And in that case what does that imply about the control we should have over Israel’s response?).
So seriously, you seem like a smart person. I’ve upvoted some of your comments in the past. Imagine what would happen if you actually started to have conversations with us, including some vulnerability (i.e. saying “hey, I was wrong about this…”).
@Andy:
And international humanitarian law applies to all governments. I genuinely don’t understand why you think the former is important and relevant, but not the latter, for understanding the current situation.
@charontwo: IIRC, it’s a line from the Truman Administration, and I didn’t say “my,” I said “our.” Perhaps the problem was that in misreading what I said, you became angry and lost control of your thoughts.
My apologies for your misunderstanding.
ETA: The clip of my original comment: “So we’re back to “yes, he’s a bastard, but he’s our bastard?”
But please feel free to be offended again because I checked my work.
@DrDaveT:
Because international humanitarian law does not explain why Hamas did what it did.
– For one thing, Hamas is a serial violator of international humanitarian law. And this is another area where Hamas’ violations are materially worse, but somehow never enter the conversation.
– Secondly, Hamas’ stated goals are genocidal, which is also contrary to international humanitarian law. IOW, Hamas clearly doesn’t care about international humanitarian law, so the idea that it’s motivating them is not logical.
– Third, let’s leave those two points aside, and assume that Hamas’ motivation for this attack was Israel’s violations. Ask yourself if it makes logical sense to try to enforce or punish Israel’s violations via the method of butchering and raping civilians. Also, there is no logic that this method of attack would conceivably cause Israel to not violate international humanitarian law in the future. Quite the opposite. There is also no logic to the idea that this attack would engender the international community to put more pressure on Israel to force it to conform to expected international norms. Again, Hamas’ attack very clearly will do the opposite.
So that is why I think international humanitarian law is not an explanation or important for understanding the current situation – because the evidence and logic IMO pretty strongly indicate that Israel’s violations have nothing to do with the motivations for Hamas to attack Israel on the 50th anniversary of the 1973 war (probably not a coincidence!) using tactics and methods that align with those used by ISIS and the Einsatzgruppen.
Israel isn’t even bothering to give warnings now, so everyone lying to themselves should probably exchange that lie with another lie. Or maybe tell the truth–they’re killing Palestinians for purposes of terror, no different than Hamas slaughtering Israelis.
“The strikes started suddenly without warning,” said Haneen Mousa, who lives near one of the mosques that were hit. “They targeted the mosque next to us and the cement blocks, the metal, the walls all fell on us.”
At a news briefing Monday morning, an Israeli military official declined to comment on whether the military had stopped giving warnings before carrying out airstrikes on homes and apartment buildings.
“We’re at war,” said Lt. Col. Richard Hecht of the Israel Defense Forces. He added: “There’s been a change of paradigm. We’ll do everything we can. But right now, this is war and the scale is different.”
@JKB: Given that one of the reasons we are always given for supporting Israel without question is that we are dependent upon them for intelligence in the Mideast, I think your point is less valuable than you think.
The Israeli intelligence failures here are part of ours. And it calls into question just how valuable of an ally Israel is.
@charontwo:
Scrape away Likud and Netanyahu and their insane nihilism all of which may completely implode upon itself, and you still have Zionism. I don’t think many American Jewish people believe that Israel should not exist. But Israel as the haven for Jewish people and the last safe place which has a right to the land is a different story. Pragmatically, Israel is not going away. But Israel has killed the dream through its inability to work out a solution to its initial aggression and Likud and Netanyahu are the effects of this dream’s death, and not the cause.
@charontwo:
What does “support Israel” mean? I want a safe and secure Jewish state that isn’t committing human rights violations and war crimes. Do I “support Israel”?
@Gustopher:
Hilariously, Shin Bet was accused of of being infiltrated by the deep state when it warned that settler attacks were causing security threats.
@Gustopher:
Haaretz has dug up a quote of Israel’s current and longest-serving prime minister stating his desire to bolster and fund Hamas, in order to prevent a Palestinian state. After Hamas is decapitated, it’s time for America to demand Israel rid itself of Netanyahu and recommit itself to democracy, to a two-state solution, to humanitarian support of secular and moderate Palestinians, and to the end of illegal settlement building.
American tax dollars should not go Bibi’s “fund Hamas” project.
@Andy:
Again, you are putting words in my mouth. Of course what Hamas is doing is an atrocity. But the atrocities Hamas commits does not erase the atrocities Israel commits. Full stop. Your desire to pick an innocent in this is simplistic. These are two entities that have been committing atrocities against each other for decades, and trying to dress one of them up as the sole victim is ludicrous.
@DrDaveT:
Remember when we were scolded for ignoring Russia’s alleged “legitimate security concerns about NATO” by unequivocally supporting Ukraine — a target of Russian pre-emptive attack, war crimes, and genocidal warmongering intended to eradicate Ukrainians? This, despite neither NATO nor Ukraine having never pre-emptively attacked Russia or its civilians.
Apparently, Palestine has no legitimate security concerns about the illegal and amoral actions of Netanyahu’s governments (including his propping up of Hamas to prevent a two-state solution) that have contributed to the deaths of tens of thousands of Palestinians. Maybe you have to be white to have legitimate concerns?
At any rate, further support for Palestine and Israel should be contingent with Hamas and Netanyahu/Likud being driven from power.
@Andy:
They seem to be pretty inconvenient for everyone, as they are routinely violated. Add in that there are plenty of ways to inflict a greater damage on civilian populations that aren’t covered at all, and I don’t have a lot of respect for them.
Genocide is bad. Chemical and biological weapons are discouraged. Nuclear weapons are more strongly discouraged. Beyond that? They’re garbage because each side will commit war crimes because that’s what war does to people.
ETA: I think you’re naive to cling to a framework that is routinely violated by everyone, in order to determine who is marginally more terrible.
@Andy:
War is about killing people in order to take their stuff, full stop. Sure, major powers decided years ago that some things were acceptable when killing people in order to take their stuff, and some weren’t, but that is just a fig leaf. International law is meaningless. Did international law keep Israel from killing Palestinians and taking their land? No, because it has no enforcement mechanism. Compliance is voluntary. Countries can pick and choose which laws they abide by. And most certainly, Israeli does not abide by international law. And of course Hamas does not. And Russia does not. And the Syrians do not. And the Azerbaijanis do not. And, well, the list is endless. Including the United States – we pick and choose what international law we follow and which we don’t. Are we war criminals because we supplied cluster bombs to the Ukrainians? Oh wait,we didn’t sign that treaty so now it’s ok. Are the Ukrainians war criminals for using them? Oh wait, they didn’t sign either. Nor did Russia, who used them first.
War is morally justified only when it is completely defensive. In your world, in this specific moment Israel is defending itself so they deserve our support. In the real world, Israel has waged war against the Palestinians in order to take their stuff from its founding moment. When it was the underdog it practiced terrorism – look up the King David hotel bombing. Now that they have overwhelming military superiority they point to the “rules of war”, but exempt themselves from them.
There is no one in that conflict that deserves our support, except for the godforsaken individuals who are caught up in this. You are trying to make the moral high ground, but what you are really doing is condoning that Israel is about to kill thousands, tens of thousands, of Palestinians who in their homes, adding to the multitudes they have already killed. You are carefully studying the “rules” so you can find why it is technically ok for Israeli to seal the borders and starve the people inside. Your moral high ground is a semantic game.
@Andy:
Sorry, I cannot find any way to interpret that as a response to what I said.
Keeping in mind that NOBODY IS DEFENDING HAMAS HERE, are you seriously saying that you don’t see how Hamas’s actions are a direct response to ongoing Israeli actions in Gaza and the West Bank? As best you can tell, Hamas atrocities are totally unrelated to Israeli embargo of Gaza, internment of Palestinians in Gaza, and ongoing seizure of Palestinian lands for new Israeli settlements?
@MarkedMan:
And nowhere have I claimed that Israel is “innocent” – in fact I said the opposite. And nowhere have I claimed that one side is the “sole” victim. And Hamas is not a victim at all.
and
Dude, seems like a rhetorical 180 from what you’ve been saying to this point.
If international law is meaningless, and no one abides by international law, and therefore all these countries are the same. And since Hamas and Israel both violate international law, then the right thing to do is for the US to do is wash our hands from the whole thing because both sides are bad.
I guess that means we shouldn’t care about any Israeli war crimes, because, after all, both it and Hamas do not abide by international law, so no big deal.
The problem with that argument is that compliance with international law is not a black-and-white thing any more than criminal law is. We do not treat all violations of domestic criminal law as equal, and that is the same in international law. Everyone (adults at least) are criminals for one thing or another. But we’re not all criminally equal.
And the same goes for countries. Hamas is significantly worse on every measure compared to Israel when it comes to both conduct in war and international humanitarian law. There is really no way you can dispute that.
In this war between Hamas and Israel, I am on Israel’s side. And yes, this is a defensive war because Israel was attacked by Hamas. And the reason I’m firmly on Israel’s side in this war (which doesn’t, I hasten to add, mean that I support Israel on anything else or excuse any of their past behavior) is because of the brutality of Hamas’ attack, and their abhorrent methods that mirror ISIS and Nazi Germany. That cannot be allowed to stand.
Hamas has proven itself to be so bad, that Israel is completely justified in destroying them. The same way it was justified to destroy ISIS, to destroy AQ, and to destroy the Nazis in Germany. You are free to disagree with that and keep bothsidesing and wishing the US will disengage, but that’s clearly not going to happen.
Here’s a short history of Israel for you: Israel was created as small, geographically disconnected state in 1947. The locals and neighboring countries said “nope” and immediately attacked. Israel won that war and took territory. Then Israel was attacked again in 1967. Israel won again and took more territory. Then Israel was attacked again in 1973. And again, Israel won that war. The reason Israel isn’t still the tiny rump state that it was in 1947 is because Palestinians and their Arab allies tried and failed multiple times to destroy Israel with military force.
The notion that Israel has waged war against Palestinians from its founding is ahistorical sophistry, but that really does help explain your worldview.
Article documenting the record number of new settlements Israel put into the West Bank recently. It’s why the IDF was almost all in the West Bank and it took them hours to get back.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-advances-peak-number-west-bank-settlement-plans-2023-watchdog-2023-07-13/
Fatah/PA was not killing Israelis. Playing mostly by the rules. Their reward was that Israel is pushing them out of the West Bank. It was entirely predictable that on the anniversary date of the last surprise attack Hamas would do something. What was not predictable, and really seems like a major mistake on their part, is their Soviet style massacre of women and children and the kidnappings. That has to be condemned. If they had limited their attacks to legitimate military targets they wouldn’t face their current criticisms.
Steve
Steve
@Gustopher:
and
Well, then, I guess we won’t hear many complaints from you when Israel, as it’s likely already doing, loosens the ROE not to care as much about civilians in Gaza.
@DrDaveT:
You said – emphasis mine:
The current situation, as in the situation that is happening now, which is the war in Gaza started by Hamas, which we have been talking about for three days now. Not sure how else I was supposed to interpret that.
@DrDaveT:
That’s correct, only bothsidesing and drawing equivalence.
This may be the real change in the situation
The attack on the children of the elite, mostly progressives, will change minds. Alan Dershowitz went off hard on the anti-semitism on display at Harvard and other elite schools, as 30 student groups rise in support of Hamas’ rape and murder.
@JKB: So where’s the change, exactly? Dershowitz has no cachet with progressives. He’s a stooge of the antisemitic MAGA right, and a Trump-fluffing Epstein-bestie. There’s nothing new about him, you and other Republicans misrepresenting the position of the Harvard student groups — a position identical to that to many secular, moderate, and liberal Jews inside and outside of Israel.
Modern American conservatives lie at a near-constant clip; e.g., Republicans are still lying about still-frozen funds being used to fund Hamas. Lying is what MAGA does. There’s no change there.
What’s changed is those horrified by the Israeli right making common cause with Hamas and contributing to the deaths of tens of thousands can no longer be bullied into silence by fake charges of antisemitism.
It’s wild the people who tried to bothsides Russia’s genocidal Ukraine warmongering, and who bothsides liberal democracy vs. MAGA extremism, are suddenly shocked by bothsidesm between Hamas and *checks notes* an Israeli right led by a corrupt war criminal who pursued a policy of bolstering Hamas — and of flouting both international law and the humanitarian pleas of his allies — because he did not want a two-state solution, a policy which has failed.
Make it make sense.
Netanyahu’s propping up of terrorists who are murdering and kidnapping Israelis and Palestinians should end both his ugly and failed premiership and American support of his government.
https://twitter.com/JuliaDavisNews/status/1711517142498103335
https://twitter.com/JuliaDavisNews/status/1711038771951763734
@DK:
Rush, rush to reveal your routine talking points. But I think you are making an error. People are in shock and as they come out of it, they will be different. They will have confronted the unthinking ideology that antisemitic professors had inculcated, even in Jewish students. This happened after 9/11 when many on the Left started thinking and then they had to make changes in their lives since they were truly awoken.
Only time will tell.
One thing already seen is such as this
@DK:
It’s really weird how you keep mentioning me without mentioning me. Very passive-aggressive.
Normally I ignore your passive-aggressive “takes” but this one I’ll respond to. On the contrary to what you suggest, I made relevant distinctions – the distinction that some here do not want to make between Hamas and Israel. You can go back and look, but I have stated over and over again that the GoP is worse than the Democrats on any number of criteria. It’s whenever I point out when there are similarities (and there are similarities as much as your Manichean worldview believes otherwise) that you leap to the accusation of bothsidesing, which is obvious a rhetorical tactic to avoid addressing what I’ve actually said. A very common tactic, but one that shows weakness. And when I, on occasion, criticize Democrats or President Biden, you and others again leap to the “but what about Trump and the GoP’ whatabboutism. Because the thing that you partisans cannot tolerate, is any criticism of your team from someone who hasn’t drunk the koolaid.
It’s the same with Ukraine and Russia. I NEVER justified Russia’s invasion. I explained why Russia invaded from Russia’s perspective as an expert on Russia, an expert who correctly predicted the invasion eight years before it happened. I did that not to equivocate about Russia, but for purposes of factual accuracy, which people like you who “have Russian friends” didn’t want to hear. I am and have always been on Team Ukraine in this war, and your attempts to dishonestly suggest otherwise are, as is typical for your behavior, dishonest.
So I’m done with this particular thread. Go ahead and have the last word, but I won’t be reading it.
@Andy:
It’s not weird you assume general statements made about the Trump troll right and its Greenwald-camp enablers are about you specifically. It’s typical of pompous people who live in a political fantasyland.
As someone else said here a few days ago in comparing you to commenters I will not drag into this by naming, your commentary is entering Twilight Zone territory, with its convoluted double-standards and impenetrable contradictions. I did not co-sign them then but I will today: they’re right.
Contra to your ego, my world does not revolve around you. And I am not shy about confrontation. So maybe get over yourself?
That said, if the shoe fits, wear it.
@JKB:
Red Wave 2022!!!11!!