The Cognitive Dissonance of It All
A GOP member of Congress on deportations.
Via The Hill: Gonzales: Targeting workers instead of convicted criminals for deportation means ‘government has failed us’
Rep. Tony Gonzales (R-Texas) said Sunday that targeting others besides convicted criminals for deportation means “government has failed us.”
“You know, if we’re going after the guy that’s picking tomatoes or the nurse at the local hospital and we’re not going after the convicted criminal, then our government has failed us,” Gonzales told ABC News’s Martha Raddatz on “This Week.”
This is rather frustrating to read. Trump repeatedly promised to deport every undocumented immigrant in the United States, often throwing around numbers like 25 million (although most estimates place the number close to 11 million).
There is zero doubt that a lot of the guys picking tomatoes are undocumented. Less likely the local nurse, but maybe. Indeed, what Gonzalez seems to be indicating is that there are labor needs in the US and that maybe our immigration processes aren’t adequately addressing them.
“You know, our country was built on those fleeing persecution, and it would be, it would be just absolutely terrible if we don’t protect those that are doing it the right way,” Gonzales said. “Legal immigration should never be mixed with these hardened criminals.”
I would note that those who are here seeking asylum fall under that category. They are here legally. But, as we saw the way that Haitian immigrants were treated as rhetorical punching bags by the Trump campaign, I wouldn’t count on compassion and nuance from the Trump administration. Trump has threatened ending Temporary Protective Status for various groups in the country.
Indeed, the Guardian reports that at least some Haitians are worried and acting accordingly: Haitian immigrants flee Springfield, Ohio, in droves after Trump election win. I mean, how would you react if your very specific community had been rhetorically targeted by an incoming presidential administration? Would you wait to find out if it was just hot air?
Gonzalez seems to still be playing the “do we take Trump literally or not?” game.
Well, time to take him seriously. He has empowered Stephen Miller and his incoming “Border Czar,” Tom Homan, is a hardliner on this topic.
Do I think there will be an attempt to deport millions? I do not, as the logistics are immense.
But do I expect some high-profile actions to demonstrate that Trump is serious? I do. And rest assured that some of the easy targets will be places with guys picking tomatoes and other sundry fruits and vegetables. And plenty go people who tried to do it “the right way” will be caught up in it all and many American citizens will be directly and indirectly harmed.
Look, I have no problem with criminals being deported. The irony is that this was the policy of the Obama administration. Note this 2016 headline and story Obama Has Deported More People Than Any Other President.
Let me share this clip of Homan, and I purposefully share it via Charlie Kirk, as the clip that Kirk gleefully shares includes Homan endorsing the notion of deporting whole families, including American citizens, to maintain the family unit. As noted above, these policies are going to cause a lot pain and isn’t going to just be criminals who are harmed. I would note that in every clip I have heard, seen, or read of Roman he comes across as arrogant, simplistic, and dismissive of the human costs involved.
To deploy a phrase: the cruelty is clearly part of the point.
A side note: Homan is listed as one of the contributors to Project 2025, although he is not a named author of any of the chapters.
Let me share this one as well, because his answer on child separation is detached from reality insofar as, yes, if a person is arrested for DUI and their child is in the car, they are separated. But the odds that that will lead to a permanent separation are small, not to mention the in most cases that child would be immediately returned to other family. And even if non-family is required, at least the child is still in their own country and being adequately tracked by state entities.
Note, again, this is posted approvingly by the account. In my view, Homan is being too clever by half and is utterly ignoring the human toll of the “zero tolerance” policy. His approach is condescending assurance that he knows best, won’t be lectured to by the legislature, and that, ultimately, he believes that the deployment of force against human beings he sees as not being part of “us” is justifiable, indeed to be celebrated. That reminds me of something…
See, also, the BBC: Undocumented migrants hope Trump mass deportations only ‘for criminals’
Across the US, migrants like Gabriela are grappling with what the incoming Trump administration’s vow to conduct mass deportations could mean for their future.
In over a dozen interviews, undocumented immigrants said it was a topic of heated discussion in their communities, WhatsApp groups and social media.
Some, like Gabriela, believe it won’t impact them at all.
“I’m not scared at all, actually,” she said. “That’s for criminals to worry about. I pay taxes, and I work.”
“In any case, I’m undocumented,” she added. “[So] how would they even know about me?”
But then there’s the flip side:
There are many others who don’t share in this optimism, and are living in fear.
Among them is California resident Eric Bautista, a so-called “Dreamer”, who benefits from a longstanding programme that protects from deportation those who were brought illegally into the US as children.
At 29, Mr Bautista has only fleeting memories of life in Mexico, the country in which he was born and left at the age of seven.
For the last four years, he has taught US history to high schoolers – including details of how waves of immigrants from Italy, Ireland, China, Japan and Mexico settled in the country, and often faced xenophobia.
“I don’t think I’ve ever felt this way, even after more than 20 years here,” Mr Bautista told the BBC. “It feels like we’re at a turning point, a new wave of nativism like those I teach about.
“It’s just a future of fear and uncertainty for us.”
Also, more context:
US authorities deporting migrants is nothing new. More than 1.5 million people have been expelled under President Joe Biden, in addition to millions swiftly turned away from the border during the Covid-19 pandemic.
During the eight-year administration of Barack Obama – whom some dubbed the “deporter-in-chief” – about three million people were deported, with a focus on single men from Mexico that could easily be deported from border regions.
Trump’s promised plans, however, are more wide-ranging and aggressive, including enforcement operations in the US far from the border. Officials are reportedly also mulling using the National Guard and military aircraft to detain and ultimately deport people.
JD Vance, Trump’s running mate and incoming vice-president, has said that the deportations could “start” with one million people.
And so we wait to see if it is just business as usual, or something more brutal and obvious is coming.
WRT:
In sheer number this is definitely the case. However, if Trump decides to target DACA/Dreamers that will definitely include nurses and other health care professionals.
I also suspect but don’t have time to confirm a not insignificant number of nursing assistants and home healthcare providers may be undocumented.
As I asked the other day, how many undocumented are convicted for violent crimes.
These should targeted first. If they are incarcerated they should be easily found and expelled.
What I fear is that after that, in order to demonstrate success, the next target will be the “easy pickings” of tax paying migrant workers.
TBH, I agree that he has won I doubt that Trump could be bothered to go after the 11 million undocumenteds… the people mainly at risk will be high profile ones (high profile because of his campaign) like the Haitians, whose legal status he can easily revoke, and the Venezuelans in Colorado. Being concentrated, those are even easier targets than the tomato pickers, and the farm owners may be able to reach a quid pro quo regarding their workers pretty easily – this will be a very transactional administration. People trying to come into the country will probably drop just because the Repubs are in control not because of anything specific they actually do, but will be seen as a success.
@Matt Bernius: I’m pretty sure the workers who just painted the exterior of my house are undocumented. The spectrum of undocumented workers is huge and, quite frankly, vital to the economy.
This has been posted before but well worth a reread: The Border Crisis Won’t Be Solved at the Border
And officials are still silent on the responsibility of the businesses and employers who do the hiring. Tom Homan is promising workplace raids. Will he charge the owners also? The politicians and leaders of the anti-immigrant forces are all brave and talk about the roundups and deportations but are silent on the demand side of immigrant workers. Let me tell you the far right notices that and are already grumbling about the lack of accountability for the well off who benefit from the undocumented immigrants.
Not surprising that a politician from Texas is expressing concern. He likely knows that several major industries in Texas, including construction, are highly reliant upon illegal immigrants. Take them away and growth in the state slows/stops while costs increase. While Abbott engages in immigration theater the local leaders will be doing everything they can to not have their workers taken away.
Steve
I’m having a hard time garnering any sympathy for a Republican member of Congress from Texas who appears to be having not exactly buyer’s remorse but a related “maybe I shouldn’t have purchased it just because it was on sale”-second thoughts about how specific PROMISED POLICIES might be enacted.
Mass deportations will wreck huge portions of the economy, probably in some areas we haven’t even considered. If Trump doesn’t go ahead with this, someone needs to press him on why.
When you have a zero tolerance policy that’s going to rely on sheer numbers as a metric, then you will see people go after the lowest hanging fruit. I don’t know why we continually pretend the rules of bureaucracy and government work don’t apply to law enforcement.
Well I believe that 76 million people voted for Trump largely because they want our immigration system to be ‘fixed,’ and by ‘fixed’ we’re not talking ‘reform,’ this is finish ‘burning it down.’ I’m sure the vast majority of them likes the tough brutalist talk, and they believe that none of this will negatively affect them.
Whether Trump succeeds with his beloved mass deportation plan is almost beside the point. What matters to Trump supporters is that Trump said he would do this, and they know that he will fight to the end to do it, and if he falls short it will be because of the so-called ‘deep state’ or Red State governors, or whatever …
Tony Gonzales (LEFP – TX)
That said, I expect Trump to do what Abbott is doing in Texas. He’ll do some high profile stuff, but he won’t deport enough people to draw the ire of agribusiness and construction lobbyists. And he’s not going to require E-Verify or jail employers. He may do some workplace raids. I understand there’s a long tradition of ICE doing raids at the invitation of the employer the day before payday.
@Matt Bernius:
I work in workforce development, and can confirm this is absolutely the case.
First off, Rep. Tony Gonzales (R-Texas) can go DIAF. There will be no failure of “government” (with the bipartisan connotations of that framing) if elected Republicans do what they said they would do. The “government is the problem” team is going to use the newly single party GOP State with cruel and ugly purpose. Rep. Gonzales, and his Republican colleagues, can own that or go to hell.
@Assad K and @gVOR10:
Though I agree with you that Trump won’t be bothered to put much effort into the Mass Deportation Project himself (he’s going to pardon himself, then golf and throw parties in his own honor), Trump has Homan and Stephen Miller already named to do that heavy lifting. And you can bet that even a transactional administration will see that deporting only the Haitians from Springfield (LEGAL immigrants BTW) and the gang members in Venezuela isn’t going to be enough to sate the xenophobic bloodlust of the MAGA masses. You have to keep feeding the mob or they’ll get restless.
Trump wants an excuse to use the military on American streets. The pretense of going after migrants will condition both the Army and civilians to accept military vehicles and heavily-armed soldiers used against political opponents. Trump’s only use for the military is the same as any dictator’s: to intimidate, arrest and execute opponents.
Will decent officers successfully resist? No.
@Michael Reynolds: This. This. This.
Rage-baiting. Jay Gould would be proud.
In my desperate search for a bright side somewhere, it occurred to me the other day that Trump has now won as many elections as he can*. As a result, he has no need to actually follow through on any of his promises — pandering to those outside the cult no longer has any purpose that he cares about. (Other Republicans presumably care about the 2026 midterms, but Trump does not.)
So, now that his fascist rhetoric has successfully gotten him elected, and given the invincibility of his standing with his worshipers, why should he go out of his way to do anything difficult? He has more important things to do, like making sure his actual masters get what they were promised. They don’t want mass deportations, or tariffs, or national abortion bans…
*Under current law. If he decides he wants to be President for Life, immigration enforcement won’t be our biggest concern.
I agree with a number of the points made in Dr Taylors post, and in comments, but I don’t think the issues are fully fleshed out.
First, who could disagree with the notion of first and foremost targeting criminals (or terrorists)? But its far more complex.
Who speaks for the relatively low skill, low wage US citizens, and former legal immigrants, who have their wage structure undermined by illegals? And why? So you can go to the store and buy cheap tomatoes? Inexpensive landscaping? A cheap housekeeper? I’m always hearing from the left about the rich “paying their fair share” ( a canard), or “exploitation.” But when the political issue of the day is immigration, the left argues for undermining the low wage crowd for the benefit of “the rich.”
Lets not act like the immigrants are all dressed up like Little Lord Fauntleroy. In no way, shape or form is it the best and brightest. And deny if you like, some countries have simply emptied their jails. Martha Raditz may think it OK that “just a few” apartment complexes have been invaded by Venezuelan gangs. But my number is zero. And its not just a couple. And what about the terrorists? Don’t deny it. Its true.
This point may be more important than any other: Who speaks for the women raped on their trek here? Who speaks for the women and children sold into sex trafficking? If you deny this issue, you are ignorant, and callous. Need I address drugs?
And lastly, I am here in Miami with my fiancée, getting a house ready for sale. You want to know what mass immigration means? Come here. Its not the US. Not to say they aren’t mostly fine people. But go into a retail outlet and the chances are they will not speak English. And they look at you like its your fault. The larger issue is social cohesion. Its one thing to be a good guy, perhaps hispanic, its another to be an American. Europe is dealing with balkanization…….poorly. The Middle East – my god, for centuries. We don’t need that.
So I would observe that its a far more complex issue than usually portrayed, and simplistically sloughed off as xenophobia.
@Matt Bernius: A fair point.
@al Ameda: I think most voters just want “the bad guys” dealt with and assume that “the right way” exists in a simple form. Like Gonzalez they don’t take Trump seriously. They just like “law and order” talk. It’s simple! Haven’t you watched the cop shows?
@Jack:
Apparently, the Republican Party can disagree. Because, targeting criminals and terrorists is what Obama did, but the GOP called it Open Borders.
The GOP doesn’t do “far more complex.” They cater to voters who, as Dr. Taylor says, assume that “the right way” exists in a simple form. None of the very real complexities you’ve listed were part of Trump’s sales pitch and nuance will not be the order of the day now that it is time to execute.
You need to own that for the sake of the immigrant women & children you claim to care about.
@Jack: First, thanks for laying out your thoughts.
Some responses.
I am all for a serious policy approach to this issue. I fully believe that recognizing the obvious market-based labor demands would be a great place to start, but that would mean more legal immigration of at least guest workers.
This strikes me as the free market approach.
There is also the possibility of targeting employers, if the goal is to stop the practice.
Ultimately, everyone wants such criminal activity halted (except, well, the criminals). That’s not the issue. The issue with these “invasion” stories was the way in which Trump used them as xenophobic propaganda.
While I can guess what you are getting at, you’ll have to spell out your point.
No one is denying these issues. But the notion that this all disappears because of tough immigration policies and deportations is simply wrong. Part of the flip side is that people are desperate enough to expose themselves to these threats to get here. That has to be taken into account.
Although, I think I would need to explain how what Trump has proposed fixes this issue.
And we already tried spending billions and billions on a drug war, and the ROI was terrible. Again, you talk about setting aside emotions and dealing with hard facts. The labor issue is pure supply and demand, as are drugs. Also, practically none of the drug problem is solved by walls, deportations, or tough-on-migrant polices. I have a post on fentanyl that I plan to write that will help illustrate this.
But I studied Colombian politics for decades and paid a lot of attention to the drug war. It was highly expensive, had substantial collateral damage, and wasn’t successful. Again, as an investor, would you spend billions for crappy ROI?
@Jack:
For the record, do you support Trump’s idea of using the military? For the entire history of the United States, the Army has never been used domestically in a ‘law enforcement’ role.
Should the military be allowed to remove protesters protecting migrants? Will it be okay to enter churches being used as sanctuaries? If protesters block military vehicles, would you have the Army empowered to use water cannon and batons? Lethal force?
Will there be any legal protections in place? What would they be? How shall we deal with people wrongly detained and deported? Do you believe US citizens can be deported?
Are you willing to pay higher taxes to pay for Trump’s purge? Do you contemplate this going on for years?
I mean this honestly and respectfully, but why do you think he’s not going to do what he says he’s going to do? We all know how bad he was last time and that he was only constrained by the fact that he didn’t know anything at the start of his term. That allowed a whole bunch of sane and sorta sane people get into important positions. He figured all that out at the end of the last term when it was too late.
This time around he’s not making that mistake, and instead, has que’d up a bunch of psychos and told everyone that he intends to install the psychos regardless of whether the Senate or anyone else disagrees. The only thing holding them back now is that they are psychos (all of them) and that none of them, Trump included, can hold two thoughts in their head at the same time and that thought is always “Glorify Trump”.
Like its deeply frustrating to me when people, especially white men, say things like, “oh, he’s never going to actually do that.” Like, why, why do you think that? Is it just because you’re not one of his targets? I don’t have the liberty of thinking “oh maybe it won’t be so bad, he’s fully of shit and won’t do anything but eat hamburders and covefe.
Again, not trolling here. Trump and the people he is enabling are going to deport as many people as they can in the most horrific way they can because they can. They are going to ban abortion and thousands of women will die. They are going to take away as many rights from women, LGBT and black people as they can. They are going to do as much damage as they can as fast as they can because they can.
I have been saying that we will know exactly what is going happen with this country on 1/20 and I suspect most people are going to sleep walk up to that day.
Reminds me of the Smithfield ham plant scene in Food Inc. Where Smithfield tips off ICE on illegal employees, ICE picks them up. When in reality majority of their plant workers are illegal. They just have that tit for tat relationship that gives off the impression Smithfield and ICE are doing their job, in exchange for keeping ICE from doing a full facility raid, as that would decimate the plant’s business.
@Jack: Part 2
So, what defines “the US” in this context?
The reasons Miami has a large Hispanic population are myriad, not the least of which being the Florida once belonged to Spain. Then there’s the whole Cuban migration. And there is general geographic proximity to Latin America.
I will push back and state that I do not think finding non-Engish speaking businesses to mean that a place isn’t the US.
But, of course, Ben Franklin groused about German immigrants not learning English.
We have fretted about Chinese, Irish, Italians, etc.
The social science is quite clear: migrants tend to be fully integrated by the third generation. The first generation tends to stick to the old ways. The second tends to be a bridge (e.g., being bilingual). By the third, fully integrated.
And Europe is Balkanized in places because they don’t have birthright citizenship in most countries. This makes integration harder.
We have done this before. If the Haitians, for example, are allowed to peacefully settle in Springfield (or wherever), in a couple of generations they will be as much Buckeyes as anyone else around there.
@Scott F.: I’m going to defend Tony Gonzales. Yes, he is a conservative Republican but he is not in any way MAGA. He is the representative for Texas District 23 which is huge. And he represents it honestly. It used to be represented by Will Hurd.
However, the politics there are not a fight between red and blue but between red and redder. He barely won his primary. Against this guy: https://www.sacurrent.com/news/san-antonios-ak-guy-now-wants-to-be-trumps-atf-director-36066790.
The problem these days is with the voters and congressfolks like Gonzales are a shrinking breed. If I lived in his district I would support him. Instead I got Chip Roy. A piece of work if there ever was one.
I don’t see us getting back to sanity anytime soon.
@Beth: Agree no doubt they want to execute their plans. But how well can incompetent leaders execute complicated plans before running into unplanned issues that sidetrack them? Unless you feel the people put into these power positions have the capability, leadership ability and intelligence to accomplish these goals. I just don’t see them having those abilities. Maybe, but doubtful. Feel like the execution of these plans and ideas will be fragmented and sloppy. Hopefully leading to failure and just more tax breaks and tough talk. The people who voted for these ideas are going to believe whatever he says regardless, even if it’s happening or not
@Beth:
To be clear: I am afraid he will try.
I really do think that an actual mass deportation of 11 million plus is almost certainly too big for him to do, except under some extreme scenarios.
Time, space, money, and capacity, all are still constraints.
I do think there will be some dramatic and awful attempts to prove that he is trying, however.
In fairness, I have been trying to get people to see that he is a fascist. And that he should be taken seriously.
@Scott: I would take Gonzalez over Roy in a heartbeat.
But I don’t think he deserves credit for helping sanewash Trump. I understand his political dilemma, but ultimately, he is enabling.
@Jack:
Actually, this just replicates the entire history of the immigrant story in the US. In Texas, the German Hill Country spoke German well into the 1940s. There are a few still around but dying out quickly. The Upper Midwest also had a lot of German speakers. In New York, there was whole areas that spoke Yiddish and published Yiddish newspapers. Here in Houston, go to Costco and hear not just Spanish but Thai, Korean, Chinese and a half dozen other languages.
This is America and always has been.
Unfortunately for Gabriela, a segment of folks driving our public discourse for the past few decades have intentionally conflated “living in the US without the correct paperwork” and “criminal.” And just going off of election results and polling data so far this century, maybe about a third of our country see absolutely no difference between her and an armed robber in terms of what they each deserve from our criminal justice system.
@Scott & @Steven L. Taylor:
I’m glad you both addressed Jack’s example of workers in retail outlets in Miami not always speaking English. To both of your points, it’s well established that many first-language immigrant communities in the US existed before the founding of the country. And there tend to be concentrations in cities. What might be a little new is encountering them in “big box” stores (i.e. Walmarts and Home Depots), but a lot of that has to do with changes to retail and job environments which make it more likely that they are taking jobs further outside the tight language and immigrant communities of a century ago.
And Steven you are completely correct about how it generally takes three generations for “integration.”
@Scott: Strasbourg, SD, birthplace of of Laurence Welk, is a German speaking town.
@Jc: My bet is that Miller and Homan will be able to fuck the situation up because they are incompetent and cruel. Not at 100% to be sure, but for this type of project, even 30 or 40% will be bad enough. And both are waaay more capable than their boss. In this situation, he may well be picking “the best.”
@Scott F.:
Scott – I could be wrong, but its called politics. Let’s scrape the hyperbole from the reality. If you want to make it about Party, how is (literally) Hitler doing so far?
@Scott: I actually get Jack on this point. He’s expressing a feeling my mom felt as she got older. When I would visit her, even before I left for Korea but especially after, she would express her frustration and sadness at not being with “her own kind.”
Of course, she was in her late 80s and suffering with Alzheimer’s dementia, so I see your point, too. 😉
I’m going to put on my devil’s advocate hat on today. Some of this really is psychological. The message from Biden, rightly or wrongly, was understood by foreigners in poor conditions was, “hey, we’re compassionate, we’ll protect those seeking asylum, we’ll try not to separate families anymore, etc.” Looking at their options, it must have seemed liked it was worth taking the chance. And lo and behold, the number of border crossings surged until Biden made some corrections.
Now the rhetoric has switched back to what Dr Taylor describes here. Sounds cruel, for sure. But are all these people really that mean, or is it partly an act to discourage illegal immigration? It’s sorta like saber-rattling, but for immigration rather than war.
@Matt Bernius:
And 100 years ago, the equivalents of Walmart and Home Depot probably weren’t hiring immigrants all that much. Immigrants had to take jobs that Koreans classify as 3-D–dirty, demeaning, and dangerous.
(And Korea has the same problem the US has with that kind of work: in general, Koreans won’t take it.)
@Steven L. Taylor: “Again, as an investor, would you spend billions for crappy ROI?”
Apparently, if it means he never has to endure the horror of walking into a store and hearing people speak Spanish.
@Beth:
I sincerely believe that it will depend on who is allowed to hang out in the Oval Office. If it’s A) the White Nationalist crew, he’ll absolutely move forward with something. If it’s B) the business/finance crew, he’ll do something performative a la Greg Abbott, and then move on to something else.
What will likely happen is some A followed by B, followed by A, followed by B in some horrific mess that will somehow be the worst of both possible scenarios.
@Matt Bernius:
I worked for HD (in Palm Beach County about 65 miles N of Miami) for almost a year in 2015 and 2016. At least 1/4 to 1/3 of my co-workers were Spanish speakers. All of them spoke English also. Granted there were 2 or 3, one was named Lily*, who I had difficulty understanding.
HD customers were a different matter. Construction related workers were mostly Hispanic and their grasp of English was often poor or non-existent.
As for undocumented medical workers, my ex-employer JFK Hospital, never hired any. Lots of Filipina nurses but they come to the US legally. I would not be surprised if home health care agencies use undocumented but then I have a very low opinion of those companies.
*- I remember Lily because I helped jump start her car once.
@Scott:
In my opinion, Tony Gonzalez winning his primary over Brandon Herrera was a bad thing. As @Steven L. Taylor notes, the “more reasonable” or “decent” Republicans are not curbing the worst possible outcomes of the Trumpist GOP, they are enabling. Rep. Gonzalez hand-waving on ABC allows some to claim the Republicans are being nuanced and considering the complexities, while Tom Homan and Steven Miller get the camps ready.
@Steven L. Taylor:
Point 1. We agree there needs to be a (legal) strategy. But supposed “bipartisan” and “sensible” solutions have poison pill elements. My ex-brother in law (FL ag industry exec) will tell you unequivocally that he needs Haitians and Latins. He will also tell you that they all present documentation, and that Americans won’t do the work. How to monitor? How to verify? And you cite putting the burden on employers. For every worker who applies and is denied by the employer, there will be a lawyer willing to sue. Its just not that simple as you apparently think, Dr Taylor. Economic realities must change. Its not really free market right now.
Point 2. You surely aren’t serious about political usage of issues. So Trump isn’t to use issues for political advantage? I permanently reside in GA. Can you imagine how many ads I saw this election season? Harris/Dems are liars and propagandists extraordinaire (how about Adam Schiff?) . (And did you know billionaires pay no taxes?) This is the ultimate in selective outrage. I have never, and don’t, claim moral purity for Trump. Anything but. But look at your guys and gals some time.
Point 3. Moderated volume, and a legal process, will moderate sex trafficking etc. Surely you know that’s just common sense.
As far as Miami. Ain’t buyin’ it. The boatlift, was what, 1981? I’m here. Don’t kid yourself. I don’t want to get all authority or something. But I’ve spent 50% of my time here for the past 2 years. This is Latin America. It manifests in so many ways. If that’s what we want, OK. But don’t pretend its the US. Its balkanization. And I think we should think long and hard about that. And oddly, perhaps this hasn’t occurred to you, these people are culturally more right. If I was just arguing realpolitik, I’d say let the Dems shoot their dirks off. I’m arguing, IMHO, from principle.
So as I suspected, if I comment, the arrows just start coming. Its OK, I’m up for it. But some, like your, are reasoned. Fine. Some, like Reynolds, are just intellectually light.
I have some things to do. Maybe I come back later. I don’t want to be rude and ignore people.
@Steven L. Taylor:
Thank you for this.
I’m interested to see how Republicans will navigate the tension: Trump’s fascist proclivities vs fiscal/economic realities vs electoral imperatives.
Republicans have to face voters in two years. Trumpist choas, slowed economic growth from Obama to Trump, attacks on Obamacare, and backlash to family separation and detention camps helped fuel the 2018 blue wave.
This is why you see swing district and erstwhile moderate Republicans like Gonzales already acting like the dog that caught the car, warning Trumpers not to expect too much.
Problem is Trump is a Hitler-wannabe, according to his own VP, former chief of staff, and White House officials. He’s surrounded by loons who really, really want mass deportation. Like First Lady Elon Musk, an illegal immigrant hypocrite who warned that Americans will face economic pain as Trump tries to remake America. Or like Stephen Miller, a Jewish middle-child turned Nazi adult.
They will want the real deal. But the corporate class knows mass deportation = economic pain, rotting crops, higher labor costs, slowed construction, bear markets etc. In the past, those captains of industry have been able to limit Republicans mostly to making loud xenophobic noises. But now? Who knows.
@Jack:
No one here said he was literally Hitler. I noted his rhetoric is quite similar and you never told me how or why that was wrong.
I think he is literally engaging in fascistic politics and several of his appointments underscore this. You haven’t told me how and why that is a wrong characterization.
@Jack:
No, asshole. It’s called real people’s real lives. You write a long comment wanting to show that you’re enlightened and see the real costs of a broken immigration system, then you play the “it’s only politics” card? The “ends justify the means” is an amoral argument, if you aren’t up on your Machiavelli.
You want to deal in reality over hyperbole? Quit the Republican Party. “American’s Hitler” (per his VP) is less than two weeks from election and months away from taking office, yet Haitians in Springfield are already fleeing their homes in droves. That’s reality. You taking your discomfort with the use of basic Spanish during retail transactions in Miami and blowing that up into balkanization? That’s hyperbole.
When the cattle cars full of ‘undesirables’ arrive at the ‘evacuation centers’, many were dead due to no food, no water and spending several days and nights in freezing weather.
Do you think that the Millers of the time cared?
@Scott F.: Hey! Let’s knock off the name-calling. It never leads to any place good.
@Steven L. Taylor:
Well, if it was only ‘bad guys’ then we’d be talking about perhaps a few thousand, not 10, 12, 0r 20 million people. So, no, I don’t believe that a MAGA voter was thinking that way at all.
Like Tony Gonzalez, who thinks Trump says things for effect and much is just talk, 6 of my 8 siblings feel the same way, they think liberals were drama queens about Trump, that he just wasn’t and isn’t as bad as his talk. They also think that Trump was treated unfairly in his 1st term and not given a chance by Democrats.
Cop Shows? Oh yeah, I watch those, and … bonus points … I’m from a law enforcement family, my late father and most of his closest friends were police and firemen. My father liked Trump, he liked the the brash tough in-your-face style. In real life, he was calm, quiet, a bit introverted, and not at all like Trump. But he liked Trump and voted for him in ’16 and ’20.
@Jc:
This. 45 does not actually have to do mass deportation. He just has to perform enough cruelty to prompt lefty caterwauling, so the 54% of American adults who can’t read above a 6th grade level believe libs are sufficiently owned.
That way, 45 gets to placate his base while not upsetting Chamber of Commerce Republicans by tanking the strong post-COVID recovery Biden is leaving him — an economy soon to be touted by Trumpers as the world’s best starting Jan. 21, 2025.
Maybe they’ll start with same as last time: family separation, some showy deportations and raids, more of the useless wall. Add in MAGA-branded private prison construction and 45 passing Biden’s bipartisan border bill. And maybe also repeat the socialist subsidies Republicans quietly gave Big Agriculture under Trump I, after his trade and border policies both failed. (It’s okay because it’s not welfare or unfair handouts when the recipients are mostly white and/or rich.)
Then 45 can declare America has been great againned, the media will cheer, and of course Democrats won’t be able to cut through to explain 45 is neither keeping his promises nor responsible for the good economy. Voila.
BTW, I may be mistaken but defense spending is on a continuing resolution under Dec 20th. Let me guess what the fight will be in the next month. There will not be congressional permission to use the military for mass deportation.
@Scott:
I apologize for my salty tongue.
That said – civility, good vibes, “more in common than different” rhetoric, and decency has not led to any place good either for coming on a decade now.
@Steven L. Taylor:
So also, Puerto Rico.
Honestly, I hear Russian, Chinese and Portuguese spoken in stores where I live.
@Jack: ” This is Latin America. It manifests in so many ways. If that’s what we want, OK.”
I’d tend to think that if the people who live in Miami prefer a culture that to some resembles that of Latin America, then it’s really a question of what THEY want.
But for a certain type of American with a certain type of beliefs, WE should be able to decide how other people live.
To Jack I say — if you don’t like the way it is in Miami, then you should either stay away, or you should move there full time and try to change the minds of the people who live there.
But then there’s always that third way — to elect a president who vows to send in the military to make sure that everyone’s lifestyle looks like yours.
@Argon:..I hear Russian, Chinese and Portuguese spoken in stores where I live.
A women that I know who works at one of the local diners here in Sleepytown is a native of Brazil. She is fluent in Portugese, Spanish and English. Her daughter who was born in the USA was talking in all three of those languages by the time she attended pre school.
One of the waitresses took offense to the child being multi lingual at such a young age. Apparently she thought it was un American.
I find it difficult to tolerate such stupidity.
@Jack: Well, I live in California, which is by any measure I am aware of, is even more cosmopolitan than Florida. We have a lot of Chinese, Filipino, Japanese, and Vietnamese. Also, there are more Mexican-Americans here than Anglo-Americans.
And it works, mostly. There are difficulties, but we work on it. Most of the people who work in food service are Mexican-American, but the ones who need to can speak English. And one of them who has worked as a busboy at our favorite place for 20 years now is speaking English pretty well. We learn some Spanish, too. Why wouldn’t we?
And there is a lot of Chinese in my town. The Chinese restaurants have changed, and are more focused on them, which means less welcoming for me. And that kinda sucks, since my favorite Chinese-American restaurant closed when the owner (a Chinese-American guy that I chatted with a fair bit over the years) wanted to retire. So it goes.
Thing is, most of the people here – regardless of ethnicity – understand what we are doing in California, how difficult that project is, and look for ways to move it forward.
For instance, I had a guy come in to give me a bid on moving my stuff when I bought a new house. It was 2017. He’s Mexican-American, spoke English well. I told him, “I shouldn’t have to say this normally, but I want you to know I’m happy you and your family are here doing this thing we are doing in California”.
He gave me a huge grin, and said, “The guys who will actually move your furniture are Pacific Islanders”. Tongans, to be exact. I thought that was cool. He thought that was cool. It takes a bit of extra effort, but there’s a reward in the richness of life that is possible.
@Mister Bluster: If someone asked me if I was offended because there was someone speaking a language other than English I would answer “No, I am jealous” Why? “Because they can speak two languages and I can’t”.
On the other hand, I’ve been around the world enough that I can order beer in many languages.
We should rid our country of bad guys. I can point out the bad guys. This whole laws, courts, rights of defendants is an effeete Woke distraction. Just let me loose! Of course, we must not weaponize the justice system against the right people like me.
@DK: My predictions have been so off lately, I’m feeling like I shouldn’t make any. And yet the scenario you describe certainly seems likely.
Trump is picking a fight, and regardless of which way that fight goes, he wins. The people really messed over are other Republicans. They would have been better off losing one of the two legislative branches, so they could blame Democrats for not adhering to Trump’s agenda. Now they’ll have to find a few Senators such as Lisa Murkowski to do it. (Alaska politics are odd).
@Scott: Miami takes some pride in calling itself ‘Capital of the Carribean.’ Our friend didnt get that subtle message.
Lived in Florida for 3 years. Have made several trips to Miami since I moved, though none in last 10 years. Anyway, it seems to me that Miami has had a large Spanish speaking community since I have been going there since the late 80s. It was largely Cuban so the GOP was OK with it. (Looking through multiple sources it look like about 60% of the latin community is Cuban.) Anyway, Miami has been that way for decades now someone discovers it and declares it’s not really America. Sigh.
Steve
@Jack:
Absolute bullshit. I go to South Florida all the time and this is simply untrue. Are there neighborhoods in Miami wherein there are a lot of non-English speakers? Sure. Are you exaggerating? Absolutely.
I will be as nice as I can be. Maybe the problem is you. Non-English speakers learn how to read body language and facial expressions out of necessity. I am sure you are a fine person to people who speak English. But my guess is that they are picking up on cues you do not even realize you are communicating. Just because you do not verbally show hostility does not mean your body does not betray your true attitude.
Also, those non-English speaking neighborhoods have existed in major cities throughout US history. We made it this far, so let’s stop pretending it’s some disaster.
I do not have time right this second to respond fully. That is a shame–the quote above is the least of the issues with your post.
@Scott F.: To all intents and purposes, Tony Gonzales is a House version of Senator Collins–deeply disappointed in how America is failing immigrants (I can even see his furrowed brow in my mind’s eye) but not enough to do anything substantive about it.
Being better than Chip Roy or the guy he replaced is not a high bar to jump. If one were limited to selecting between Roy and Gonzales, what would be the point in voting? But I gave up on voting for “less worse” choices long ago.
@Jack:
Wait…
Undocumented workers have standing to sue under US employment discrimination laws? THAT is a serious problem. Why did the business-government complex give them those sorts of rights?
@Franklin:
Two thoughts.
1. They did some of in Trump 1, so yes, they mean it.
2. While I think there is evidence that some messaging makes it way to migrants, I would note how hard it is to get basic messaging out to everyday Americans and would suggest that getting clear messaging to desperate people in Venezuela, El Salvador, et al., is several magnitudes of order harder.
@Just nutha ignint cracker:
Of course it’s a b.s. argument. We have Real ID and facial recognition and thumbprint readers. Green cards can be made as secure as passports – I can now walk thru JFK passport control in under two minutes thanks to the new tech.
No, @Jack doesn’t want an actual solution, you have to understand that. He’s not arguing honestly, he’s just simulating honest argument because Steven’s been on him. He knows – everyone knows – the solution is to sanction employers of illegals. There is no real barrier to that happening, the ‘but but lawyers’ argument is b.s..
@Jack:
I am honestly at a loss to understand how you think I think this is simple.
Indeed, part of my point is that all this tough talk, or even tough action, won’t solve most of these problems. I think it is Trump, et al., that is being simplistic.
The foundation of all this is supply and demand. But, again, I wasn’t suggesting that it is a free market right now. Indeed, I simply noted that I prefer a more free market approach (something I thought conservatives and hard-nosed economic realists believed in).
I am little unsure as to what you are referring to here, but I will try. I am a political scientist, not a politician. So, if I am going to talk about gang activity in Aurora, CO, I am going to talk about the reality in terms of what the real problem is. And I will remark on when a politician’s rhetoric is detached from reality. I think above you mix and match arguments based on politics and reality. For example, in regards to Obama, there is a broad political question about credit and how it played in the populace and then there is the question about what did as it pertained to deportations.
@Scott: Agreed.
@wr:
Dumb.
See what I mean, Dr Taylor?
@Just nutha ignint cracker:
They portray as documented.
And you may be aware that illegals are flown all over the place. Given residency. Food. Health care.
C’mon man.
@Mister Bluster:
Well, to be fair, there’s approximately 49.96% of Americans who are likely to agree with her (not to mention some %-age of the 48.25% that voted for the other major party candidate, as well as many of the <.5% who voted third party). Americans are pretty famous for having that kind of stupidity, though I've seen it with my own eyes in other places, too.
@Jack:
No, it’s Miami and Miami is in the United States. As @wr notes, if you don’t like it, that’s your prerogative. I, for one, like Latain America and enjoyed Miami when I visited, although it’s been a while and it did remind me of Latin America.
The country has a lot of regi0nal culture, this strikes me as a good think.
Why does this bother you?
I wasn’t even referencing the Mariel Boat Life. The first wave, and a very significant one, from Cuba was after the 1959 Revolution. I would politely suggest that perhaps you knowledge of the history of southern Florida is incomplete.
And yes, the place attract a lot of Latin American expats. I know that during the height of the violence in Colombia during the drug war, a lot of wealth Colombians relocated to Miami. I am sure that same is true of Chavez era Venezuelans.
@Jack:
By whom? I can tell you for a fact that Federal funds cannot be used for Food or Medical benefits for undocumented folks.
They may receive temporary emergency food and medical care but they cannot access SNAP or Medicaid.
I know this because I work with the Federal Government on the delivery of benefits.
https://www.migrationpolicy.org/content/immigrants-public-benefits-us
States have limited ability to use state tax dollars for social safety net purposes. But now we are getting into a Federalism issue and State control over State resources.
The vast majority of undocumented folks rely on income from work, family, and charities for support.
@Jack:
If they are truly undocumented, they aren’t going to be bring lawsuits, as that would be a an excellent way to get deported.
You will have to explain the rest of that, because I am not sure what you are saying.
Are you conflating asylees with the undocumented?
@Michael Reynolds:
Allow me to assure you that I harbor no illusions whatsoever about Jack. I probably do more than my fair share of trolling the trolls, but I just can’t resist. I don’t have student minds to corrupt anymore and that part of me needs an outlet occasionally. (For what it’s worth, I’ve killed two comments I posted so far today. Baby steps.)
@Steven L. Taylor:
100%. It’s one of the reasons why crimes that happen to undocumented folks and in undocumented communities tend to go unreported.
Again, this is a space I have worked in and around for almost 6 years.
@Steven L. Taylor:
Further you can go into most established cities and find multi-generational immigrants communities that have been there for decades. They can shift due to influxes of migration, but that’s a slow process.
Theres a reason why when you go to Chinatown in Oakland or New York, people still speak Chinese. Many are FotB or are older folks who immigrated and didn’t learn English.
@Steven L. Taylor:
Maybe we are talking past each other. I’m saying it’s very, very complicated. But just wide opening the border is not productive. And it’s not xenophobic.
A wide open border, simplistically characterized as saint-like asylum seekers, Dreamers or whatever is childish. They are coming because their countries are garbage. But it comes with so many knock on effects for US citizens that it can’t be tolerated in this volume. It’s not the US responsibility to fix everything for people in Venezuela. It’s the essence of the term “America First.”
Legal and controlled immigration and finding ag workers are not mutually exclusive. But as I noted previously, poison pill bills surfaced by Dems (read: mass amnesty) are not the answer. With the Hispanic vote in this election Dems may WTFU. Or not.
It’s for another comment, but I think those who discount cultural assimilation (see wr idiotic comment) miss so much. Sure, America is a melting pot. But look at the state of discourse. The Dems have pursued a strategy of balkanization. How’s that working out?
@Jack: A person who’s only portraying as documented can’t risk suing anyone (and chances are good that he or she got the green card for the portrayal from an associate of his or her employer). But I understand why you resent the government providing aid to immigrants, and yes some of that aid goes to people who are “undeserving.” That’s life. You’ve probably gotten things you didn’t deserve, too. (I would make a reference to having a fiancée at this point, but I’m trying to be a better person just for today, so I won’t.)
@Matt Bernius:
Wow. Do you read anything other than Raw Story? Have you listened to a word from the mayor of NYC; the governor of TX?
I would really like to see the undocumented workforce organize. Just pick one state, and stop going there. When Florida or wherever cannot pick their oranges or whatever, and when home health care rates skyrocket, we may see an about turn in the politics of immigration at a national level.
(I’d also like to see them organize for better wages, etc)
@Steven L. Taylor:
The first thing that came to mind to me on this point was the immigration theater set pieces by the governors of Texas and Florida, but I’m trying to be a better person today,* so I didn’t mention it.
*And I’m sad because I’m not doing very well at it.
@Just nutha ignint cracker:
Xxxoooxxx
You are so naive.
@Jack: Who’s advocated for a wide-open border here? To quote you, “C’mon man!”
@Just nutha ignint cracker:
If a mediocre blonde white woman can successfully sue colleges for having affirmative action and not giving her a spot in the incoming class, can a mediocre white person successfully sue an employer for hiring undocumented workers at the expense of red blooded Americans?
Sometimes I just want chaos.
@Jack: the criminally indicted Mayor of NYC who lies about being vegan*? That NYC mayor?
——
*: fish are not vegetables. It’s not like honey, where there’s a reasonable debate. If you’re lying about being vegan, I really question your judgement in all areas.
Why does nobody remember the negative consequences Georgia already had years ago when they tried……. this exact policy?
Hope the fun of racism is really worth the millions in lost farmer income and tax revenue and wildly increased food prices! Except this time it won’t be just one state. And Biden won’t be around to blame any more.
Oopsie!
@Jack: “Dumb.”
You keep calling me that, but you’re the one who is afraid to shop in a store where the employees speak another language.
Oh, sorry, you’re not afraid. You feel uncomfortable. And wish everyone in America was a Real American like you.
Just sad.
@Jack: “But just wide opening the border is not productive. And it’s not xenophobic.”
Maybe that’s why no one has been calling for any such thing. Except the cartoon villain Democrats you see them talk about on Fox.
They lie to your face, you lap it up and repeat it here. But I’m dumb.
@Jack: “Have you listened to a word from the mayor of NYC; t”
I listen to them all, because I live here. My favorites are the ones when he insists that the tens of thousands of dollars in luxury travel he took from the Turkish government had nothing to do with him granting the Turkish government an occupancy permit for a building that wasn’t actually ready for occupancy.
@Jack:
Jack,
Here is why you are a thin skinned asshole.
You have asked us to take it on faith that you are some god of investment banking… excuse me a principal at a firm.
My bio is on this page. I LITERALLY have worked in the field of Federal Benefits for years. You can easily google my name. I’m not going to claim I’m an expert on the topic, but I know far more about it than your pathetic, willfully ignorant ass.
And yet you refuse to acknowledge my or anyone else’s expertise… oh wait, except for Lounsberry and you ran from someone who actually knows your own sector. Because, like any internet bully, you can dish it out but you cannot take it.
I don’t get my facts from “Raw story”. I get my facts from working with actual people at the Federal and State level. I get my facts from actually interacting with immigrants who are legally able to access federal benefits and undocumented folks from time to time.
I presented actual evidence, with details about medical care and food support–with explanations about the role of Federalism in the handling of funding.
But hey, keep on demonstrating that you have no actual applied knowledge–beyond your own biases–about the topic.
Also, this is your only warning, if you ever try to pull that shit on me again, I will edit out the post. Feel free to cry about censorship all you want, but you don’t deserve any respect that you are not capable of giving.
BTW, that will be the message those posts are going to get:
@Matt Bernius: Indeed. I was in Boston about a year ago and stayed near their Chinatown. Signs in Chinese, business with Chinese/Chinese-American workers. People speaking in other languages.
My wife and I had a really nice meal there. I did not, for one second, think it wasn’t the US.
[Edit: Jack/Drew/Whomever tired trolling has been replaced with the following message about this poster:
Jack/Drew/Whomever is a thin skinned, willfully ignorant asshole who refuses to honestly engage on topics and pisses his pants and runs away like a little bitch when confronted by someone who actually knows his industry and calls him on his bullshit. Once he’s been banned he creates a new screen name and the pattern repeats itself. That’s why Jack/Drew/Whomever now gets this message.
These copy/paste messages will continue to replace the trolling until Jack/Drew/Whomever grows a set and engages in an actual conversation based on respect.
– M.B.]
FWIW, I am reading a bit about the local laws in New York City and the issues with sheltering immigrants there.
Because of work, I don’t have time to do a full deep dive on the issue, but it’s pretty much what I said–that this is an issue of State and Local Laws in terms of housing and other care.
The New York Times has some good reporting from earlier in the year on the issue:
https://www.nytimes.com/article/nyc-migrant-crisis-explained.html?unlocked_article_code=1.a04.NRaM.0cDzA1UFTPbB&smid=url-share
The only group I see claiming that there are secret Federal government sponsored flights are going on is “The Center for Immigration Studies,” which is to the immigration discussion what The Heartland Insitute is to discussions about Cigarettes causing cancer (they claim they don’t) and Climate Change (they claim it isn’t happening).
Who needs evidence when one can rely on common sense?
Snark aside:
Even if we had an electrified fence the height of the Tower of Babel along the entire border and a moat filled with sharks with frickin’ laser beams attached to their heads for backup, smuggling will occur as long as there is demand for “sex trafficking, etc.”
Why? You’re a business man. Figure it out.
Okay, snark not aside.
A hidden danger of ideology:
One can swap between x is complicated and x is simple at will.
BTW @Jack–whine as much as you want. Now that I have that written, I’m more than happy to use it until you learn to interact like a human being.
PS… all of your comments are now going straight to mod… so if you want to use the same behavior, no one will get to see the originals.
Love and kisses.
Oh, and nice email address… glad to know you are a pro at gaping. That… requires a lot of stretching.
(For the love of god people, don’t look it up.)
[Edit: Jack/Drew/Whomever tired trolling/playing the victi, has been replaced with the following message about this poster:
Jack/Drew/Whomever is a thin skinned, willfully ignorant asshole who refuses to honestly engage on topics and pisses his pants and runs away like a little bitch when confronted by someone who actually knows his industry and calls him on his bullshit. Once he’s been banned he creates a new screen name and the pattern repeats itself. That’s why Jack/Drew/Whomever now gets this message.
These copy/paste messages will continue to replace the trolling until Jack/Drew/Whomever grows a set and engages in an actual conversation based on respect.
– M.B.]
@wr: It always eventually reduces to him calling someone something. But I get it. It’s tough to sell off of an empty wagon.
@Kurtz:
There is certainly a great deal of that going on.
@Jack:
Allowing for rhetorical purposes your “wide open borders” mischaracterization, what exactly are these “knock on effects for US citizens” that can’t be tolerated? Cheap fruit? Clean hotel rooms? Well-maintained lawns? Fantastic tacos?
Your attempts to make this about crime and safety won’t work here — the locals know the facts about who actually commits crimes. A flood of brown people who are, on average, more law-abiding and less dangerous than our home-grown citizens is NOT, in any way, an intolerable stress on America. No amount of anecdata will change that. Dreamer kids who are American in all but database entry are not a threat to Our Way of Life — they are our way of life.
…and these undocumented visitors are (again, as I’m sure you actually know) NOT the ones sucking at the public teat. They pay more into the system than they get out of it, by quite a bit. But it’s important to lie about that, because you can’t effectively demonize who they really are.
It’s fun when you slip, and accidentally show who you really are. When you said
…I realized I would never find a more perfect illustration of what entitlement looks like.
Hey Jack. I hope you are beginning to realize that you are not going to win this particular pissing match. Once that post gets to a point where it isn’t tired playing the victim after you discovered that I actually follow through on my words, then I’ll let your supposed “good bye” message through.
And seriously, you don’t have to quit the site (if you are even capable of that), just interact in a way that actually shows you are capable of carrying on a discussion that isn’t based on insults and choosing to be willfully ignorant.
For the record I’ve seen you start discussions pretty rationally and in good faith, but for whatever reason, that never lasts and everything descends into name calling and accusations.
@Kurtz:
This is the part of this whole discussion that I always find fascinating: supposed cold hard cash capitalists who allegedly love the free market and believe that, ultimately, it is all about money don’t want to look at the basic supply and demand if it all.
1. The ROI on the drug war was terrible. The money invested (so to speak) did not provide a good return like, at all.
2. The labor demands in the US clearly outpace labor supply. And we have an east solution: migrant labor.
And since this has clearly degenerated,I will go ahead and just state the notion that Miami is not the US requires having a very specific view of what “the US” is. It is a view that assumes that Anglo-American is “normal” and other things are dangerous deviations.
To me, Miami is a quintessential US city, not the other way around.
And it amazes (and saddens) me that so many of us keep repeating the same cycles about immigrants.
@Steven L. Taylor: And BTW: pointing out that at the root of all this are supply and demand issues doesn’t mean dealing with the overall problem is easy or that that is all you need to know.
But man, the forces at play are pretty damn powerful.
@Steven L. Taylor:
Miami has more in common with Vancouver, BC than it does with Kansas City.
Big, semi-melting-pot of diverse immigrant groups who maintain their own culture while also being a part of the larger culture. There are a number of similar cities across the world (New York, London, maybe San Francisco, Hong Kong, Paris, etc…)
Montreal is desperately trying to maintain their “Frenchness” by committing unspeakable acts against bagels. (Are wood-fired bagels antisemitism in bread form?)
These multicultural cities in the US are a direct affront to the White Nationalism that defines so much of America. (Where the French might have French nationalism, we’ve blended all those European heritages into a generic “white”)
If America had a distinct culture, I would understand wanting to hang onto it more, but our culture is a bland amalgamation — like American cheese.
(Plus soul food, jazz, blues, rock, rap, … but we know that’s not what anyone means by “American culture.”)
Sigh.
Just remember that the attitude you guys express is what got you killed in the election.
Have fun with your group think.
I need to let the left self immolate.
Ps.
My best to Jay, Scott, and Kurtz. And Dr Taylor.
I don’t agree with you guys. But I respect you.
Trump causing US stock market to fall
One
Two
Once that stock market contraction starts, it’s hard to get it started again. Economists call this contraction a “Recession” — and it’s all Trump’s cabinet picks.
“Investors are waking up to the staggering costs of some of his plans”
My Canadian brother-in-law gave us a copy of a magazine called Toronto Life. It’s about (duh) the city of Toronto, provides info on restaurants, art galleries, book stores, films, museums – you get the drift. And pretty good articles.
About 10 years ago now (sorry, we can’t find the issue anymore) there was a story about a school whose incoming grade 1/2 class was made up of 35 or so kids who all came from other countries and were new to Canada. They interviewed the kids re their favorite subject, did they like school, what did they want to be when they grew up, etc. And what they discovered was that the entire year was made up of Hannah Montana and Spiderman fanatics.
It was somehow very touching to think of these 6/7 year olds acclimatizing that fast. And yet English was their second language, and many of them had brown/beige/black skin. Funny old world, isn’t it?
@Gustopher:
Maybe? But what does that demonstrate? Miami has more in common with San Antonio than it does with Kansas City.
But KC and Miami share US national politics, the NFL, the NBA, the MLB, college football, and a variety of other cultural touchstones. And the degree to which Vancouver and Miami have pop culture in common, it is because of US cultural imperialism.
I mean, sure, large metro areas have specific things in common with large metro areas across countries that they don’t have in common with smaller cities within countries.
@DK:
Just because it annoys me each time I read this: there’s no evidence that I’m aware of that the 54% of people who read at a 6th grade level or below (which isn’t actually that bad; that’s the BBC website, MSN, and the Guardian website) are largely the same as the ~50% of people who voted for Trump. And there’s many reasons to think they aren’t, given the demographics and so on involved. It wouldn’t surprise me if Democratic voters on average read better than Republicans, but I honestly doubt the difference is that large. If anything, people who can’t read well are less likely to vote, not predominately vote Republican.
And, more importantly, the way you write it makes it seem like reading below a 6th grade level is a moral failing, which it isn’t. Some portion of those people are for some reason incapable of reading above a 6th grade level, and others just weren’t taught how to read well. My 6 and 8 year old daughters are learning to read, and it’s hard. And we spend a lot of time reading to them, with them, trying to model reading, and so on. Not everyone had parents who could/would do that work. Plus there was/is the whole phonics vs whole language fight playing out for the past 20 years; some kids just don’t respond well to whole language, but that was what the focus was.
So, anyway, I don’t know if you’ll read this, but I hope you’ll think about whether you want to conflate lack of reading ability with being a Trump voter. Don’t get me wrong, I think many/most people who voted for Donald Trump lack empathy and/or object permanence, and some portion of them are evil. Most probably didn’t think about it too much. And saying that it’s because they don’t read well gives some portion of them too easy an out.
@Jack:
Yes, I’d actually like you to address drugs. Lets begin with data.
90% of the border drug smuggling is conducted by ……..(wait for it) ……. US citizens.
I been telling you guys @Jack/Drew is not capable of actually sustaining an argument, not even in what he considers his wheelhouse. And outside of that narrow zone he knows nothing and cares less. He’s ignorant, as are most people who lack curiosity, and he’s not smart enough to know his limits. He thinks he’s knowledgeable. He thinks he’s smart. He even thinks he’s witty, which is, well, funny/sad.
And don’t be too sure about his claimed CV. He used to say he was in mergers and acquisitions.
@Kevin:
I do.
Ignorance fuels, and enables, Trumpism.
Having read through this entire thread, it becomes really clear to me why conservatives don’t bother arguing their points.
The data doesn’t back up their arguments. So guys like Jack come in here guns-blazing, spouting off arguments that work well in corners of the internet where your ideas are not held up to strict scrutiny.
The problem for casual readers of this stuff is that they can cherry-pick a few things to make some good points – RFK Jr. is correct that there are too many weird additives in our food – but those bits and bobs don’t make vaccines dangerous, or justify leaving dead bear cubs in Central Park, much less gutting the FDA/CDC and imprisoning Dr. Fauci for doing amazing work for the people while a goofball POTUS stammered on stage suggesting “a cleaning” as if he was going to solve COVID right there on stage.
The fact is that nobody in power wants to deport all the immigrants. It’s not good for businesses who illegally employ them. It’s not good for the workers who are just trying to get some money to send back home.
Mass deportation is not good for anybody except for ordinary wage workers whose labor supply is being artificially enhanced with people who are powerless to fight back on wages and benefits.
Mostly it’s just rhetoric by Mr. Trump – but it’s such strong rhetoric at this point that we might all be forced to round up thousands/millions of people and put them in camps despite there being no reason to do so, thanks to Trump’s ignorance and bluster.
Trump’s corporate overlords won’t allow anything more than a few thousand folks rounded up before they put a stop to the whole thing.
@Matt Bernius:
When my grandmother arrived in this country in 1906, she was dropped off in lower Manhattan along with 8,000 other immigrants.
That was the status quo (the number of new arrivals) day after day for several years.
So the question that nags me is: How did NYC absorb these thousands immigrants day after day without breaking the city budget?
@Michael Reynolds: You are correct. It’s pointless.
This thread was instructive, however.
The Miami is Latin America line was telling.
Just a point of order.
I have basically lived in Miami for a couple years. It is not a quintessential US city; it is an outlier. My travels have taken me to every major city (or 2) in all 50 states, except Maine. (And Vancouver, BTW) I lived in Chicago, NYC. I am in Atlanta all the time. You criticize me as opinion, and not fact based. And yet this is a strange statement about Miami.
I only bring this up because you, collectively, think of yourselves as fact based, when you really are largely opinion based. And that’s OK, but it should be recognized.
And since I started. Matt thinks I’m an investment banker. No, I’m a principal. As such, although one does all the typical formal analysis and third part diligence one can, experience, intuition and judgment are what makes the investment world go ’round. You live and die by that.
It can’t be reduced to a formulaic approach, especially with selective “facts.” You would be out of business quickly if you did that. IMHO, nether can many of the topics on this forum.
Again, not trying to be difficult, but in my surveys of blogs and news outlets I continue to see Dems blaming messaging, dumb or misinformed voters, misogynists etc for the election result. You might want to rethink that.
@Jack: @Jack:
Need I address drugs?
Yes, I’d actually like you to address drugs. Lets begin with data.
90% of the border drug smuggling is conducted by ……..(wait for it) ……. US citizens.