Tuesday’s Forum

FILED UNDER: Open Forum
Steven L. Taylor
About Steven L. Taylor
Steven L. Taylor is a retired Professor of Political Science and former College of Arts and Sciences Dean. His main areas of expertise include parties, elections, and the institutional design of democracies. His most recent book is the co-authored A Different Democracy: American Government in a 31-Country Perspective. He earned his Ph.D. from the University of Texas and his BA from the University of California, Irvine. He has been blogging since 2003 (originally at the now defunct Poliblog). Follow Steven on Twitter

Comments

  1. Bobert says:

    Good morning y’all.
    Maybe late to the discussion, but how would “social media” be transformed if free speech exercise on platforms prohibited anonymous postings?
    For example, it occurs to me that the postings that are proclaiming the killing of the UHC CEO as justified would be curtailed if poster had to identify themselves.

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  2. MarkedMan says:

    @Bobert: FWIW, way back in the day when I got my online access from services where I was identified, I only participated in professional and innocuous social group discussions (programming languages, various hobbies, science news, etc). If I had to post under my own name I might lurk here, but I would never contribute. I don’t care for myself, but it wouldn’t be fair to my employer or my family to drag them into some kind of kerfuffle over some strong opinion I expressed.

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  3. Rob1 says:

    @Bobert:

    Probably curtailed as much as posts rationalizing and celebrating the rapacious profiteering of healthcare corporations over the needs of suffering people. I mean who would want to put their name on that?

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  4. Sleeping Dog says:

    @Bobert:

    I’ve advocated for use of real names as a cure for cesspool comments sections, but the risk is reduced participation, as @MarkedMan: points out.

    Ostensibly, Facebook has real identity and the threads their can be a cesspool, but not as toxic as Xhitter or many, many other comment sections.

    Another option is “reader curation,” where the reader decides whose comments they want to see and ignore others. This is how Bluesky functions. With reader curating, someone who has a particular ideological leaning, but would like to engage with the opposition, respectfully, can choose engagement with thoughtful opponents, while rejecting the mouthbreathers.

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  5. Stormy Dragon says:

    @Bobert:

    Yes, clearly the problem is not a healthcare system had become completely dysfunctional, it’s that the peasants can express their actual opinions about it without fear of retaliation from their feudal masters.

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  6. Rob1 says:

    From the Troller In Chief:

    [Trump] The Democrats are fighting hard to get rid of the Popular Vote in future Elections. They want all future Presidential Elections to be based exclusively on the Electoral College!

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-makes-dumbfounding-claim-democrats-165925399.html

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  7. Stormy Dragon says:

    I’d also note how the people advocating for real names are almost always straight white men who have never had to worry about being targeted for their identity by a stranger.

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  8. Not the IT Dept. says:

    @Rob1:

    I’m totally open to a mandatory presidential debate where a team of lawyers and historians throw random quotes at the candidates and demand to know whether they’re in the constitution or not. Bonus points if the candidate can identify the correct section or amendment the quote is from.

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  9. Gavin says:

    Troll accounts such as “Bobert” should have to post using their real name. We can be quite sure this individual won’t be back to defend the killing of people for profit.

    Obviously Bobert hasn’t paid attention to the comments on Ben Shapiro’s attempt to blame the mercing on The Left….. this single incident actually brought the country together like nothing I’ve seen in many years and it’s great to see.

    Conservatives and liberals alike responded by requiring this executive to acquire pre-authorization before he is permitted to receive thoughts and prayers.

    When anyone says “we need to think of Brian Thompson’s family”……. Sure, fine, but only after the person who made the request first thinks of of the families of each and every person UHC intentionally bankrupted as their business model before letting that person die before receiving care.

    The business model of health insurance is 110% a scam — they “offer” a service and then intentionally don’t pay legitimate claims. And in 2024 they have been using AI to reject those claims.. quicker!

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  10. Charley in Cleveland says:

    First to Bobert – congrats and thanks for tossing in a good discussion topic. I only take issue with the notion of free speech on the internet. People have as much free speech as the host platform wants them to have as the first amendment limits government, not private actors. That said, online anonymity certainly ratchets up the level of mis and dis information and pumps up the level of assholiness. But the lack of anonymity hasn’t curtailed the Troll-in-Chief, Donald Trump, whose public statements and online postings say more about his ignorance and lack of judgment than they do about the substance of the issue he is commenting upon.

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  11. gVOR10 says:

    @Not the IT Dept.:

    throw random quotes at the candidates and demand to know whether they’re in the constitution or not.

    Apparently Senator Mike Lee was on Meet the Press talking about changing birthright citizenship. One of the hosts quoted the 14A line about all persons born in the United States and he accused her of selective quoting, leaving out the part about Congress can modify the requirements. It says that Congress can pass legislation to “enforce” the requirements. Lee lied. Although he’s dumb enough he may believe what he said.

    Also too, I post under a pseudonym as before I retired there might have been consequences had my employer known my opinions. Both to me and my defense contractor employer.

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  12. Chip Daniels says:

    @Stormy Dragon: See, I’m one of those and this point is well taken.
    I freely use my real name wherever I go on the internet, but I also am a straight white cishet man. I get that minorities often face appalling levels of abuse and threats online which is why I understand the need for anonymity.

    Having said that, I notice how anonymity is a double edged sword, enabling those very same threats. I don’t have some clever answer to propose but if I did it would be to support a stronger moderation policy generally.
    And a pony.

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  13. Mister Bluster says:

    If President Truman can threaten violence to a music critic and have his words printed all over the country:

    Mr Hume:
    I’ve just read your lousy review of Margaret’s concert. I’ve come to the conclusion that you are an “eight ulcer man on four ulcer pay.”
    It seems to me that you are a frustrated old man who wishes he could have been successful. When you write such poppy-cock as was in the back section of the paper you work for it shows conclusively that you’re off the beam and at least four of your ulcers are at work.
    Some day I hope to meet you. When that happens you’ll need a new nose, a lot of beefsteak for black eyes, and perhaps a supporter below!
    Pegler, a gutter snipe, is a gentleman alongside you. I hope you’ll accept that statement as a worse insult than a reflection on your ancestry.
    H.S.T.

    Can I write:
    Convicted felon President Elect Donald Trump is a pig and a pervert.
    If he tries to grab my crotch I’ll knock his dick in the dirt.

    on these OTB threads?

    I am:
    Lawrence Gregory
    Makanda Township
    Jackson County
    IL

    Edited to add: I am a straight white man.

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  14. gVOR10 says:

    @Gavin:

    When anyone says “we need to think of Brian Thompson’s family”

    I recall the day after his shooting hearing the usual statement from his wife about what a great and loving husband and father the CEO was. Later we find they’d been separated for some time.

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  15. Not the IT Dept. says:

    @Mister Bluster: “…I’ll knock his dick in the dirt.”

    Sorry but I’m having a hard time imagining how this would work. Knock his ass in the dirt, okay that makes sense. Rip his dick off and shove it up/down his hoo-haw is something else I can envision. But as you wrote it, nope it’s not coming across.

    If you have to explain, you’re losing.

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  16. MarkedMan says:

    @Stormy Dragon: I also ust don’t see how it would work. Say James and Stephen say, “Real Names Only”. The honest would either comply or stop posting. But our Trumpers would simply make up a name. How could it be enforced?

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  17. Kathy says:

    @Stormy Dragon:

    Keeping in mind the distinction between a real name and a legal one.

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  18. Joe says:

    A long time ago, I considered starting a spreadsheet of personal attributes mentioned by each of the regular commenters so I could put together who they were (recognizing that some of us tell that all the time – looking at you Michael Reynolds). I decided that would be creepy and invasive. But I also know to treat anonymous comments with more grains of salt than fully-owned ones.

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  19. MarkedMan says:

    @Joe: I’ve thought about doing this myself, but for a more practical reason. I have a lot of trouble remembering who’s who, even amongst the frequent poster. For instance, the contributor who is obsessed with “bitches be lyin'” sometimes stops posting for a few months and when he next shows up, I’ve forgotten his handle. I think, “That post from this new guy is a little odd, but I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt”, only to realize a couple of posts later that it’s just going to be hallucinatory diatribes and not worth the effort.

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  20. Mister Bluster says:

    @Not the IT Dept.:..
    I hope this helps!

    Edited to add:
    Notice how when Moe slaps Curly he spins around. If they had been outside he would fallen forward and landed face first in the dirt. If they were standing in a fresly plowed bean field.

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  21. Jen says:

    I find it hard to argue that protected free speech wouldn’t include writing as anonymous, when documents fundamental to establishing our nation were written anonymously (The Federalist Papers).

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  22. CSK says:

    Kari Lake is being considered by Trump for ambassador to Mexico.

    Good times, Kathy.

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  23. Joe says:

    @Jen, there is absolutely a Constitutional right to publish anonymously that I once had to litigate to allow a bunch of small town participants on an on-line bulletin board remain anonymous from the county clerk who was trying to out them. She was trying to prove that she couldn’t get a fair trial in that county because everyone hated her. She wasn’t wrong about her basis, but the county judge agreed with me that my bulletin board operator did not have to disclose the identities of the posters based on the First Amendment right of the anonymous posters.

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  24. Michael Reynolds says:

    @Joe:

    A long time ago, I considered starting a spreadsheet of personal attributes mentioned by each of the regular commenters so I could put together who they were (recognizing that some of us tell that all the time – looking at you Michael Reynolds).

    Yes, because:

    @MarkedMan:

    I have a lot of trouble remembering who’s who, even amongst the frequent poster.

    The audience is not static, people come and go. I find it helpful when people define themselves. For example, @steve is a doctor, and that’s useful data, it puts his comments in context. People who don’t know, or don’t remember that he’s a doctor, are missing useful information.

    I detail my lack of formal education, for example, or my working class background, or my criminal history, because absent those facts I ‘sound’ like an arrogant, upper class, over-educated twat.* When in reality, I’m an arrogant, working class, under-educated twat. It’s all about the taxonomy of twattery, which I think clarifies things. As you choose not to share details I’m left mystified as to what kind of twat you are.

    *I use the word ‘twat’ in the way a Brit might, and you won’t know this, but in my head I’m even pronouncing it in the British way.

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  25. gVOR10 says:

    @Joe:

    A long time ago, I considered starting a spreadsheet of personal attributes mentioned by each of the regular commenters so I could put together who they were

    Many years ago I made some brief notes about OTB commenters. Example: “gVOR10 – Smart mouthed arsehole and occasional bomb thrower.” Did it for your reasons, I couldn’t keep them straight. I found myself responding seriously to people who weren’t serious. Doesn’t help that I’m somewhere on the spectrum and can’t remember names. I maintain my list only fitfully anymore. But anytime I revisit it I’m struck by the number of commenters I haven’t seen for a long time. At least under those handles.

    An example I haven’t seen for a long time – “Guarneri – (2020-02-25) Conservative troll, occasionally says something interesting, but mostly just trolls. Claims to be some sort of wealthy business person.” I suspect this is an example of still here under another handle.

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  26. Kathy says:

    @CSK:

    Ambassadors are so easy to expel.

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  27. MarkedMan says:

    @Michael Reynolds:

    As you choose not to share details I’m left mystified as to what kind of twat you are.

    Was that a general comment or specifically addressed to me? Because I feel like, if anything, I’ve overshared on this blog in the last couple of decades and have left little doubt as to my specific variety of twat.

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  28. CSK says:

    @Kathy:

    Lake’s expulsion will be an occasion of great celebration for Mexico.

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  29. Michael Reynolds says:

    @MarkedMan:
    No, not at all directed at you, not even a little. Not really directed ‘at’ anyone. Just having a little fun with words.

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  30. Kathy says:

    @CSK:

    You’d think so, wouldn’t you? after all, the felon is supposed to die on a Mexican holiday, because whenever he dies we’ll declare a holiday. But then his majesty made nice with him, as authoritarians of a feather are wont to do, and now I just don’t know.

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  31. Bobert says:

    Thanks to all for the discussion, I’ll want to ponder the differing viewpoints but overall I’m inclined to the view that if I have something to contribute or comment on I self moderate that posting with a question to myself: Would I have the courage to stand up in a meeting public town hall or government meeting (thereby revealing my self) ? If not then maybe I should keep my counsel to myself.

    To MM’s point: Part of the my courage assessment is the potential for retribution to my loved ones, and potential blowback from an employer. So, MM your point is well taken.

    So for now, I’ll just sign off as Bobert, previously known as Bob@Youngstown. The moderators here know my email address, and can google that to find my actual address and phone number.

    Have a great Christmas everyone.

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  32. Gustopher says:

    @MarkedMan:

    How could it be enforced?

    The easiest way would be to require a credit card, and let the credit card issuer handle the authentication. That’s what Amazon does/did in reviews that had the “real name” badge.

    They got around the chilling effect of a “real names” policy by allowing first names to be shorted to an initial, and maintaining masked “anonymous” reviews (they know who you are, but almost never show it… except for that one time). Also, it’s not really a social network, so there’s a lot less stalking.

    (I did have a right wing nut job going to all my reviews and arguing, as I had left a poor review of Big Jim McClain — a John Wayne movie where he plays an investigator for the House Unamerican Activities Committee, hunting communists in unions in Hawaii)

    I’m not sure why anyone would post to Facebook, as it is stalker central. But, it has a loosely enforced real name policy, but mostly because they want to ensure that performers are paying for premium accounts.

    Back when Google+ was a thing, they had a “real sounding names” policy that was amazingly racist (there was a workaround for people with non-white names, involving sending them an id). And a permissions policy that was inviting people to make mistakes and publish stuff to the wrong audience.

    There have been various other attempts over the years, but they generally boil down to terrible guessing, relying on snitches, credit cards and photo id.

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  33. CSK says:

    According to Politico, MAGA lawyer Mike Davis has threatened Republican senators with private investigators delving into their lives if they try to block Trump’s plans.

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  34. Gustopher says:

    @Bobert:

    The moderators here know my email address

    Do they? I don’t recall any email verification, and even if there was one it’s easy to get a throwaway account. They might have your email address, but they don’t know it is accurate.

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  35. Bill Jempty says:

    I met somebody today I hadn’t seen in 45 years*. My 10th grade Spanish teacher who was also advisor to School Student Council when I was its treasurer. Maria Brunet. Mrs. Brunet is a parishioner of our parish and she knew Leonita. She remembered and recognized me. I didn’t recognize her but I hadn’t forgotten her.

    *- I graduated from HS on June 6, 1979.

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  36. Bobert says:

    @Gustopher:
    Well I’m not a computer whiz, but I do believe that the moderators here could match my email address with my IP address.
    Occasionally I’ve mis-entered my email and it goes to moderation jail.

    Regardless, I’m not inclined to argue the internet complexities, but I stand with my own conviction that the social media sites would be better if posters weren’t hiding behind the drapes.

    (BTW, don’t we caution young men and women to be careful what they post, as it may well show up during a job interview)

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  37. MarkedMan says:

    @Bobert:

    potential blowback from an employer

    Just to be clear, I’m not all that concerned with potential blowback from my employer. I’m near enough to retirement that it doesn’t cause me that much agita. My concern is in the other direction. I’m an executive at this company and I don’t want anything I say online to negatively affect our business. It’s a small company, but there’s still a hundred or so people drawing paychecks and I won’t endanger their livelihoods just for the sake of telling the internet my opinion.

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  38. MarkedMan says:

    @Gustopher: Amazon has a reason to have your credit card on file. Much as I appreciate James, I won’t be sending him my credit card info, and I’m sure he is happy not to be responsible for keeping it safe!

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  39. becca says:

    Nikki Giovanni has rejoined the stars. The universe is lucky to have her.

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  40. MarkedMan says:

    @Bill Jempty:

    She remembered and recognized me.

    Holy Smokes! You’re my age, and there ain’t nobody recognizing me from tenth grade!

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  41. al Ameda says:

    @CSK:

    Kari Lake is being considered by Trump for ambassador to Mexico.

    I’ve heard that Mexico is building a wall to keep her out and that Canada is picking up a third of the cost.

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  42. Jen says:

    @CSK: I’m sure that will go over well. LOL. Ah well. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes I guess.

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  43. CSK says:

    @becca:

    So sorry to learn this sad news.

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  44. CSK says:

    @al Ameda: @Jen:

    😀 😀 😀

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  45. gVOR10 says:

    I’ve a couple of times quoted an unremembered political scientist as saying the big secret in Poli Sci is that the electorate are a box of rocks. I finally stumbled across who said it. The accurate quote is from Jacob Hacker and Paul Pierson in Winner Take All Politics.

    This is the dirty little secret of our profession. Among political scientists, that most voters are woefully ignorant about politics is completely uncontroversial, and has been for decades. The survey evidence on this subject is overwhelming. Yet it is not something widely disseminated, and a good deal of effort in the discipline is devoted to scrounging for reasons why the severe knowledge deficits of voters don’t matter all that much, and why Washington will be attentive to voters’ demands even if most voters are not very well informed and not paying all that much attention.

    I may still occasionally remark that the electorate are a box of rocks. More dramatic, but essentially accurate. This also undercuts all the discussion of how to better inform voters with better messaging. Ignorant voters are a given.

    Hacker and Pierson go on,

    What does it take for weakly informed and aware voters to attract Washington’s sustained notice? It takes organization. To be more than bystanders in American politics wondering whom to shoot, voters need strong organizational mooring and consistent cues to recognize and respond to changes in public policy.

    It’s often remarked that our elected representatives are very sensitive to the wants of voters. But only the better heeled voters. Conservatives, with Kochtopus and techbro money, are very well organized. Liberals are not. This is a path forward. And a challenge. Unions used to be our primary organizing and lobbying organizations. If my primary concerns are economic, what liberal organization do I join?

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  46. Liberal Capitalist says:

    Yahoo is changing…

    I found this page because I used the RSS feed in My Yahoo.

    Now, Yahoo is redoing things, and My Yahoo as a customizable homepage may no longer exist, which means that people like me finding you via RSS feeds may disappear as well.

    Looks like getting OTB username for Bluesky and starting a Substack may be in your future?

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  47. Michael Reynolds says:

    The answer is: Three hours and twenty-seven minutes.
    How long I was on hold to reach Social Security, Alex?

    Can’t wait to see the hold times after Elon fires half the staff. I declare an early happy hour.

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  48. CSK says:

    @Michael Reynolds:

    I’ll join you virtually. Drink up. You earned it after that.

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  49. MarkedMan says:

    @gVOR10:

    Among political scientists, that most voters are woefully ignorant about politics is completely uncontroversial, and has been for decades

    These must be the greatest researchers ever! … because their research supports my totally half-assed observational conclusions: 70-80% of the the voters simply don’t have any idea what the issues are that affect them or how various politicians would advance or inhibit those issues. They vote on their feelings in the moment.

    This year I had another breakthrough: for most people the voices that stir them are speaking TRUTH(!). To be clear, I don’t mean that people are stirred by truth-tellers, but rather that if people can be energized by a speaker they regard whatever nonsense spewed as absolute truth.

    I was prone to saying that when people are agitated they look for strongmen – even if the source of their agitation was from that very strongman. Putin or Orban or Trump creates chaos and confusion, and then proclaim they are the only ones that can save us and a significant number of people will simply flock to them. While I still think this is true, I now think it is only an offshoot of a greater principle, one that the rhetoricians discovered millennia ago – people associate a certain type of stirring within their soul with TRUTH! If someone can fill them with fervor, or “righteous” anger, or hatred or all-consuming resentment, they feel, down to their marrow, that that person is speaking the complete truth and therefore worthy of their support and loyalty. They don’t want to hear the carping of naysayers marshaling “facts” and “history”, they don’t want anyone at all stomping on their vibe.

    All the talk we had about cults can be boiled down to this: a cult leader can stir those types of emotions in their followers, and a cultist is one who gives themselves over to those emotions.

    For whatever reason if someone is raising those feelings in others, my immediate reaction is to put my hand on my wallet and back out of there. For that predisposition I am profoundly greatful.

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  50. Just nutha ignint cracker says:

    @Bobert: One thing I found true over and over during my career was that I was good enough at the jobs that I was doing that management was willing to put up with the degree to which I was also a pain, so cautions about the internet usually did not resonate for me. And in my earliest days at OTB, I did post under my actual name. I took the ignint cracker nym as an homage to what some of my peers in teaching believed me to be* and to play along with the culture here. Everywhere else, I go by first initial and last name or first name last initial.

    *I found this out when one of my minority students told me that he decided to take Eng 101 from me because he’d been told that I was an unrepentant bigot, and he assumed that if he could pass the course of an unrepentant bigot, he’d do well elsewhere. He had to drop the class when his work situation changed, but thanked me for challenging him to become more bold and forceful at stating his convictions.

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  51. Bill Jempty says:

    @CSK:

    @Michael Reynolds:

    I’ll join you virtually. Drink up. You earned it after that.

    Can I come too but will there be any Ginger Ale or Sprite around?

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  52. Bill Jempty says:

    @Liberal Capitalist:

    Yahoo is changing…

    It is about time.

    The main page for the website where I first began posting stories, hasn’t changed in 25 years or the year before I began writing there.

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  53. CSK says:

    @Bill Jempty:

    Just for you, Bill, I’ll run out and get some.

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  54. Jack says:

    I saw in an early couple comments in this thread criticisms of the health care system. I have plenty of criticisms myself, But I think I have some questions to all commenters.

    The health care system has various fundamental characteristics. Many not good:

    1. It is a health maintenance system. (a mechanism to pay for everything) It is not an insurance system, pooling risks for premium payers, with winners and losers, if you get sick or not. As such, and since it is viewed as “free,” it has almost no possible outcome other than overuse by consumers, and abuse by prescribers.

    2. Related. It is a third party payer system, with the issues cited in 1. Nothing is free; costs are simply shifted, generally without guard rails. Shorter: no one eats hamburger on an expense account, they eat steak. Insureres act accordingly.

    3. It is highly regulated, which means that it is subject to lobbyists, lobbying politicians to craft regulations. Not good. Who do you think will win that battle? Consumers or insurers?

    4. Substitute government? ObamaCare did not reduce costs, maintain choice or improve outcomes. Obama is not a stupid man. He sold the country a bill of goods, for political gain.

    5. Market forces that produce efficiencies in just about all product and service offerings are considered not operable in health care. Why? How is that working out. Does anyone think they get proper value for their health care dollar? Why advocate government? Is the Pentagon efficient? Is SS a model of financial success. Medicare? Our education system?

    Other:

    I saw a comment about Guarnari. Yes, that’s me. FYI It was the name of my stereo speakers at the time. My current model is Amati. But I’m not Amati. Made by an Italian company called Sonus Faber. They are the “musical” vs “clinical” style. Unsolicited advice: Never go, say, Magico vs a Sonus Faber, unless you are all hard rock all the time.

    Michael Reynolds made a comment about his wait time, I think for SS. I’ll see you and raise you. Having been put on hold, I once listened to Exile on Mainstreet, Dark Side of the Moon and Kind of Blue back to back to back before giving up. I ended up driving several hours towards Atlanta to a SS office (I’m in the No GA mountains) I realize the SS admin can’t have an office on the GA NC border, but seriously, can’t they just pick up the phone?

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  55. MarkedMan says:

    @Jack: Wow. Banalities and basic misunderstandings of how things work. Not even worth the effort.

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  56. CSK says:

    Kimberley Guilfoyle will be Ambassador to Greece. I guess that’s a consolation prize for being dumped by Junior.

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  57. Monala says:

    @Jack: Your comment is mostly nonsense.

    1. People don’t generally “overuse” health care. Yes, some people are hypochondriacs, but most people generally only use the healthcare they need. In fact, they often use less than they need, either out of concern about costs, lack of time, fear or wishful thinking (hoping some condition will go away), or a general dislike of going to the doctor. (To distinguish this from your second point, I interpreted this issue as about when people go to the doctor. Your next point is more about what they request or receive in terms of treatment once they get there).

    2. People are not generally “ordering steak when all they need is a hamburger.” Most ordinary people don’t know the healthcare they actually need, and thus follow the recommendations given by their doctors. People might ask about treatments they’ve heard about, but again, usually defer to their doctors. However, the ACA attempted to put in place some guardrails to prevent people from receiving unnecessary treatments, such as giving people the opportunity to have end of life discussions (and what treatment you’d want or not) with their doctors as a covered Medicare expense, as well as a group that would make best practice recommendations for a variety of health conditions. And a lot of that was shot down by Republicans and their fearmongering about “death panels.”

    3. Lobbying is definitely a problem — on this, we are in agreement. But regulations are not, in and of themselves, the issue. Many regulations attempt to limit the impact of lobbyists. And many lobbyists are aiming to repeal or eliminate regulations.

    4. Obamacare actually did reduce costs in many areas. See here. The ACA did this while also covering millions more Americans, so the net savings is small. But the fact that there were savings at all, while ensuring that many more Americans had coverage, is remarkable.

    5. Healthcare is not like other issues in terms of market forces. When you need healthcare, you need it, and usually don’t have time to shop around or compare prices. Again, you often don’t know what you need, and there are few or no alternatives if you can’t get the care you require. Furthermore, not obtaining the healthcare you need can result in lifelong disability or even death. Very few other things you might buy have all these restrictions.

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  58. Kathy says:

    @gVOR10:
    @MarkedMan:

    According to Orlando Figes in his work on the Russian revolution, there was a peasant revolt right after the civil war wrapped up. Lenin thought it a greater threat to his government than the civil war had been.

    Sparing a lot of explanation and context, the popular outcry went like: “Long live Lenin! Death to the Bolsheviks!”

    Alrighty then..

    But, think of people dead set against Obamacare but who think the ACA is great. Or how people give contradictory answers to the same question phrased differently. Or a general skeptical attitude towards vaccines, like how not enough people get a flu shot, or now a COVID booster, every year.

    IMO, one needs a basic understanding of the fundamental issues. Like you can’t have too many vaccines, or how inflation reduces the value of money as well as raise prices (so prices don’t usually come down after inflation does), etc. Otherwise one can be prey to all sorts of outrageous claims that bear little resemblance to reality.

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  59. charontwo says:

    @CSK:

    Which resolves the question “Is Trump trolling us?”

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  60. Fortune says:

    @Monala: They’re overmedicated and given unnecessary tests.

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  61. Michael Reynolds says:

    @Jack:

    I once listened to Exile on Mainstreet, Dark Side of the Moon and Kind of Blue

    I’d have killed for that. 3.5 hours of one fucking brain-dead Muzak tune. One. But the staffer was very pleasant. She gave me another number to call. Tomorrow.

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  62. Monala says:

    @Fortune: Which medications and tests are unnecessary? How frequently does it occur that patients are receiving something not needed? As all the stories coming out about United Healthcare members demonstrate, people are often denied medications and tests that an insurer deems “medically unnecessary” even when their doctor recommends it.

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  63. Kathy says:

    @Monala:

    On overusing healthcare, I heard that a lot in the 90s. Hypochondriacs and medical fetishists aside, most people try to avoid visiting the doctors, as you note.

    The one near-reasonable explanation I came across, as that doctors ordered lots mores tests than necessary, and patients don’t object because they don’t pay for them.

    Maybe. More likely maybe some doctors do this. But, IMO, patients don’t object because the doctor thinks these tests are necessary.

    Now, I’ve no idea how this works in the US. In Mexico, my insurer refused to cover a PET CT, because it was not necessary for hernia repair surgery. My insurance agent, who does not work for the insurer, explained the insurance I have covers expenses grouped by disorders. They can also decide to cover only part of some expenses. For instance, they did not cover all the surgeons’ fees (but came close enough).

    Also, one often must pay out of pocket first and get reimbursed later.

    So, as most other things in life, it’s not that simple.

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  64. Michael Reynolds says:

    Here’s healthcare in Las Vegas. Nevada has the worst ratio of doctors to patients in the country. Worse than Mississippi FFS. Which is to say worse than basically every developed country. Worse than Portugal or Spain, worse than fucking Bulgaria.

    Anything serious we go to Cedars or UCLA in Los Angeles. That’s plane tickets, car rental, hotels. That’s not snobbery, that’s the explicit advice of our Vegas doctors. Do not get cancer here or have a stroke or get shot. Honestly, had we known this ahead of time we’d not have moved here.

    Say what you will about LA or San Francisco, you can get first class medical care.

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  65. Michael Reynolds says:

    @Jack:

    ObamaCare did not reduce costs, maintain choice or improve outcomes. Obama is not a stupid man. He sold the country a bill of goods, for political gain.

    No, he got all he could get from Republicans who were in lockstep opposing any change that might be credited to a Democrat. More people are covered – including me, because under the old system I could not get any kind of policy because I’d moved states. I had to form a corp to get coverage.

    Typical GOP bullshit. Obstruct and then denounce the lack of progress. Refuse to try and fix anything so you can stoke voter anger. See: immigration. You people have no interest in anything but filling your pockets and finding someone to shit on.

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  66. DrDaveT says:

    @Sleeping Dog:

    I’ve advocated for use of real names as a cure for cesspool comments sections

    My employer would pretty severely curtail what I could post here, or which topics I could discuss, if it were easy to figure out who I really am and who I work for.

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  67. Matt says:

    @Fortune: Tests are always unnecessary until they aren’t…

    The USA spends per capita 50% to 100% more than other countries while getting vastly worse results. How much worse? Our maternal death rates are nearing third world levels. Lebanon, the Gaza Strip and a whole slew of other “shithole” countries have better rates than the USA. The United states life expectancy is ranked 48th (79.46) among the world and DROPPING. Canada is 20th at 82.72…

    Our current system is by every metric failing.

    Well except the metric of profitability. Boy howdy some corporations and board members are making mad bank…

    EDIT : Based on my experience with the healthcare industry I could agree that some things are being over prescribed. When the pharma rep shows up with catering for the entire staff and freebies galore they aint doing it just to be nice. They fully expect to see an increase in prescriptions for whatever drug they are pushing that day. I haven’t been involved in something like that directly for several years now so I’m not sure if that’s still happening.

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  68. Bill Jempty says:

    Actor Michael Cole and Baseball player Rocky Colavito passed away. They were 84 and 91 respectively.

    Cole was one of the stars of The Mod Squad. I never watched that show but just writing this post makes the show’s theme music play in my head.

    Colavito was home run hitter mostly for the Cleveland Indians and Detroit. His trade to Detroit for Harvey Keunn is called the Curse of Rocky Colavito but attributing the downfall of the Indians, a perennial first division team from the 20’s to the 50’s, to that trade is wrong. The Indians despite a second place finish in 1959. Cleveland’s troubles started in the mid 50’s with personnel moves like not signing Hall of Famer Luis Aparicio plus, putting another Hall of Famer on waivers- Hoyt Wilhelm, trading Roger Maris, and lastly their very successful manager Al Lopez leaving town at the end of the 1956 season. Colavito’s trade was just before the 1960 season began was just one piece of the puzzle.

    RIP Rocky and Michael

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