Wednesday’s Forum

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FILED UNDER: Open Forum
Steven L. Taylor
About Steven L. Taylor
Steven L. Taylor is a Professor Emeritus of Political Science and former College of Arts and Sciences Dean. His main areas of expertise include parties, elections, and the institutional design of democracies. His most recent book is the co-authored A Different Democracy: American Government in a 31-Country Perspective. He earned his Ph.D. from the University of Texas and his BA from the University of California, Irvine. He has been blogging since 2003 (originally at the now defunct Poliblog). Follow Steven on Twitter and/or BlueSky.

Comments

  1. Bill Jempty says:

    Baseball pitcher Luis Tiant has died. El Tiante was 83. He was the star pitcher for the 1975 Boston Red Sox who barely lost an exciting World Series to the Cincinnati Reds. Tiant won games 1* and 4 for Boston.

    Tiant entered the majors as a hard throwing pitcher but by the early 70’s arm trouble had his career on the edge of extinction. He adapted and became a finesse pitcher whose corkscrew** pitching motion beguiled hitters. At the end of his career Tiant had over 200 career wins. Tiant was a memorable player. RIP.

    *- I remember watching game 1 live on NBC. Tiant also scored the first run of the game. The World Series had no designated hitter rule at that time.
    **- Somebody once wrote that while Tiant went through his pitching motion that he could both check the sky above for rain and whether his center fielder was properly positioned.

    2
  2. Not the IT Dept. says:
  3. MarkedMan says:

    Between now and the election we’re going to hear a lot about how voters want to hear about policy, and how Kamala Harris should sit down with (insert network/interviewer here) so she can be quizzed on policy. Don’t believe a word of it. The pundits are lying. As proof, I offer two huge policy initiatives, one from each candidate, that landed without a ripple, with no follow up by these intensely-interested-in-policy pundits.
    1) Donald Trump advocated that the federal government should impose massive tariffs and use at least some of the revenues to directly pay for child care.
    2) Kamala Harris proposed that Medicare should pay for in-home long term care.
    Either of these would be huge and costly programs, and entail the Federal government entering new areas. But how much discussion of them have you seen?

    18
  4. Rick DeMent says:

    I have an old friend that I used to work with back in the 80’s. We became friends on social media a few years back and it turned out that they supported Trump in 2016. They seemed lucid about why they supported Trump and we had a few long chats that were more or less amicable over the years. The 2020 election kind of changed them and they became more radical but still able to have a reasonable back and forth over issues. but recently I saw a post they put up about Democrats controlling the weather.

    I was sure they were being tongue and cheek so I mentioned that old General Hospital story line Where Luke and Laura try and stop Mikkos Cassadine from extorting the world with is weather control machine. Needless to say their post was NOT tongue and cheek. I fear the contagion has taken over. I was gob smacked. Not just the poster but all the commenters were going along with it too. there were about a dozen grown ass people actually convinced that the Democrats could control the weather.

    We are so doomed.

    https://www.paleycenter.org/collection/item/?item=T:45235

    7
  5. charontwo says:

    Here is an economic analysis that says the costs of AGW are so huge the “Tragedy of the Commons” does not apply, it’s cost effective for large countries to reduce their carbon emissions unilaterally.

    The.Ink

    For years, economists’ best estimates of the cost of climate inaction were giant but not quite big enough to stimulate immediate and adequate action. The cost of inaction was, in a sense, high enough to be terrifying but too low to be galvanizing. But now a groundbreaking new study has raised the estimated cost of inaction by so much that it makes acting seem like a bargain, and even makes it makes sense for wealthy countries to act alone, regardless of what their peers are doing. It’s a rare academic paper that could change everything.

    Until the new paper, the most commonly used economic models were predicting climate impacts on the world economy on the order of about $200 in losses per ton of carbon emitted, or around 2 percent of world GDP (the monetary value of everything people produce) per degree of warming. But while those are huge numbers by any measure (world GDP is around $100 trillion), they aren’t big enough to motivate most leaders to justify mitigation, which will also cost a whole lot of money.

    To put it in terms the authors use, the recently enacted Inflation Reduction Act will cost Americans roughly $80 per ton of carbon emissions avoided, and while each ton not pumped into the atmosphere would save the world $200 as a whole, it would only save Americans about $40 of that $200, making it feel to some altruistic but not self-evident in purely economic terms.

    In their new paper, economists Adrien Bilal of Harvard and Diego Känzig of Northwestern take a fresh look at the data, with results that have the potential to upend conventional wisdom. They show that the social cost of carbon is likely far bigger — six times bigger — than previously estimated: losses of more than $1,000 per ton, or around 12 percent of world GDP per degree of warming. Six times bigger than the previous consensus, those are staggering numbers — roughly equivalent to the economic drag on big economies if they were permanently at war.

    Suddenly, that $80 Americans are spending on reducing one ton of carbon emissions is netting them $200 or so in U.S. economic activity. You don’t need to know what anyone else is doing for this to be a good investment.

    snip

    So for the U.S. alone, climate change will cost about $200 per ton out of that $1,000 figure. That’s what we find, which again is much bigger than previous estimates. But we also know from work that has studied the Inflation Reduction Act that a lot of the subsidies or policies that aim to decarbonize the economy, they cost about $80 per ton that you avoid emitting. You can spend $80 per ton to avoid a cost of $200 per ton — and so suddenly, it is cost-effective for the United States. Even if it doesn’t care about any benefits for the rest of the world, it should still decarbonize to a substantial extent because it’s going to be cost-effective from its own perspective.

    Another thing I’ll add is something we don’t discuss in the paper, which is that these decarbonization policies, given our numbers, almost pay for themselves. If you take a 30 percent tax rate into account, you get $200 of benefits back — that’s about 60 to 70 dollars that go back to the government once it taxes the economic activity that materializes as a result of avoiding climate change. And that’s close to the $80 that you spent in the first place, the cost of the policy. That’s more speculative, and again, that’s not something that’s in the paper, but we think that’s a pretty powerful argument that may incentivize governments to take more action.

    Of course these “benefits” are not actually received benefits, they are avoided costs.

    5
  6. charontwo says:

    Just to underscore the point of my AGW post from The.Ink above, the ensemble model for Milty has shifted back north to again hit Tampa Bay square on:

    https://x.com/ECMWFbot/status/1843920095611105598/photo/1

    1
  7. Tony W says:

    @Rick DeMent: The thing that really gets me about this ridiculous “controlling the weather” conspiracy is that they think we are so stupid that we use this magical power just to hit some red states in our own country, and we do so 5-6 weeks before the election, not when it could affect actual votes. Oh, and the idea that we’d use it on our own country rather than against Putin or some other bad guy.

    16
  8. Jen says:

    @Tony W: Or, if Democrats COULD control the weather, why wouldn’t they deploy such powers to improve the predictability of rainfall for farmers–while claiming credit for it–to bolster their numbers with rural voters?

    It is SO SO stupid that I’m having trouble wrapping my mind around it. JFC, how far we have fallen.

    10
  9. Kylopod says:

    @Rick DeMent: @Tony W: Conspiracy theories about the weather being controlled go back a long way, and they’re tied heavily to anti-Semitism; the people alleged to be controlling the weather are usually Jews (typically the Rothschilds). In 2018 a DC lawmaker promoted this theory, and it was that same year that MTG posted her now-notorious “Jewish space lasers” screed on Facebook, though it wouldn’t become widely known until years later, after she entered Congress. And it was MTG herself the other day who tweeted “Yes, they can control the weather.” Some media outlets interpreted the they to be referring to Democrats, but it’s more likely the conspiratorial they, the shadowy cabal secretly pulling the strings (it’s the they you find in the classic slogan of every tinfoil-hat-wearer, “That’s what they want you to think”)–which, let’s face it, just means the Jews.

    10
  10. Bill Jempty says:

    A doctor’s office called yesterday to remind me of an appointment I have for tomorrow morning. Should I use a canoe or sail boat for the trip?

    The phone call was an automated one. I expect a live person to call today to say it is being cancelled and ask when I want to be rescheduled.

    A Category 5 hurricane is heading for Florida but our local newspaper can’t keep itself by deploying click bait in a main page article. There is little mention in it of how Milton might affect Palm Beach County.

    Palm Beach County isn’t in for a direct hit from Milton but county residents will suffer property damage and power loss. For around 5 minutes, Dear Wife talked on Saturday about us taking off to the Philippines so not to be around for Milton. She quickly dropped the idea when she remembered all the flaws in that scenario. My health, our cat, getting packed quickly, what to do with perishables, her job* etc..etc…etc.

    My next book is coming along. It is good I have four extra batteries for my lap top. Power or no power I can still work (At least for a while) and get this project finished by the end of the month.

    Health wise I am hanging in there. No results concerning my endoscopy two weeks ago but I am sure if there was any bad news I would have heard already.

    *Dear Wife’s boss has declared today a half day. Tomorrow DW will be off and Friday too depending on circumstances.

    5
  11. Bill Jempty says:

    @Tony W:

    The thing that really gets me about this ridiculous “controlling the weather” conspiracy is that they think we are so stupid

    The trouble is, much of the voting public isn’t very smart. For that reason, I think the polls are off again like in 2020, and a good number of forum members here have acknowledged that a good number of undecided aren’t undecided and there is the Moslem vote in Michigan, that Trump will win next month

    2
  12. Bobert says:

    Was listening this am to some network media folks carping how Harris projects to be a “change” candidate, but doesn’t really promote substantial “change” from Biden.
    Notwithstanding the republican claims, why would Harris seek to change the inflation trend, the job growth trends, the overall economic trends.
    IMHO, the “change” that Harris represents is a change from a politics of nastiness, of conspiracy theory, of overt lies, of personal grievance, of fraud, of name calling, of “I only can fix this”. She presents a change from the Trump style of authoritarian rule.

    6
  13. Kingdaddy says:

    Yesterday, in the comments below my post, there was a brief conversation about faith. It wasn’t the first time here on the blog, so I wanted to add a little to that topic. The word “faith” is, like many others in the Bible, translated from an ancient language, amended by later authors, and filtered through centuries of different interpretations. The regurgitated result may not represent the original intention of the authors of the Gospels, or even how some Christians understand that particular concept today.

    In the case of faith, the word may not have meant “unquestioning belief in the face of the absence of evidence” to the authors. Take, for example, the story about the centurion (a Roman and a pagan) who asks Jesus for help.

    When Jesus had finished saying all this to the people who were listening, he entered Capernaum. There a centurion’s servant, whom his master valued highly, was sick and about to die. The centurion heard of Jesus and sent some elders of the Jews to him, asking him to come and heal his servant. When they came to Jesus, they pleaded earnestly with him, “This man deserves to have you do this, because he loves our nation and has built our synagogue.” So Jesus went with them. He was not far from the house when the centurion sent friends to say to him: “Lord, don’t trouble yourself, for I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. That is why I did not even consider myself worthy to come to you. But say the word, and my servant will be healed. For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.” When Jesus heard this, he was amazed at him, and turning to the crowd following him, he said, “I tell you, I have not found such great faith even in Israel.” Then the men who had been sent returned to the house and found the servant well.

    You can certainly read the word faith in this particular stories in a lot of ways, as many have. But the word in this context doesn’t sound like blind obedience or utter credulousness. Maybe it means the compulsion to do the right thing (find a way to heal the servant/slave, no matter what the source), or something like putting your trust in Jesus and God. I dunno.

    By the way, I’m writing this as a heathen, but also as someone who thinks that the compound fallacy (“This person who says dumb things about faith is representative of all Christians, as well as the early Christians”) is always a bad thing.

    3
  14. gVOR10 says:

    @Bill Jempty:

    The trouble is, much of the voting public isn’t very smart.

    The electorate are a box of rocks. One party suffers from that fact and the other depends on it.

    4
  15. just nutha says:

    @Bill Jempty: My doctors–pulmonologist, hepatologist, cardiologist, and neurologist–have explained to me that many of the “probably won’t find anything” exams I undergo regularly are to the goal of knowing that action is necessary if the tests reveal problems. I see their argument, but still suspect that some of the issue centers on doctors having what used to be called “Ben Casey” or “miracle worker” complex.

    The fact that “insurance pays for it” (in my case gubmint via Medicare) plays some role also, I’m sure.

    2
  16. just nutha says:

    @Bobert: That’s still is more of a “maintain the status quo” argument than an “agent of change” one.

    Unless you’re proposing Biden as an authoritarian or Harris’s election finally ushering in post-racial America.

    In which case I definitely want a container load of what you smoke.

  17. Michael Reynolds says:

    Ahoy from the Queen Mary 2 at sea.

    The Atlantic ocean is quite large.

    9
  18. just nutha says:

    @Kingdaddy: The “blind obedience” argument is not being made to criticize the notion you’re discussing. It’s made to ridicule those whose faith the speaker does not share. I would have expected “a heathen” to know this, but thank you for the attempted clarification.

    3
  19. inhumans99 says:

    @Bill Jempty:

    Without going into great detail, I take the opposite view. That Kamala is honestly and truely on track to win next month. Her lead in the polls has been rock steady. I really do believe we are not in an era where we would see Kamala or Trump 10% or better ahead of each other in the polls, so her being only ahead by 3-4% does not make the hairs on the back of my neck stand up.

    I think Trump voters are not quietly holding back that they will vote for Trump but saying they will vote for Kamala to the folks who are polling them.

    I do feel that there are many individuals who feel uncomfortable, yes…almost afraid to admit this ahead of the election, to admit they absolutely plan to vote for stability the next several years, aka, voting for Kamala Harris.

    Also, fingers crossed most of Florida is spared because Milton turns out to weaken quickly once it hits land and things do not end up as bad as forecast. I would be happy to watch DeSantis hold a press conference where he finds a way to blame Kamala/Liberals for forcing Florida to spend a lot of money preparing for an event that fizzled out. One can hope that is the case this time around as many counties in FL are still cleaning up from Helene.

    My thoughts and prayers really are with Floridians this week.

    3
  20. Kylopod says:

    @Bobert: Harris is walking a fine line, trying to tie herself to Biden’s policy successes while trying to be appealing in a way he’s failed to be. Some of that is simply the fact that she’s younger, female, and a PoC. And she’s in some respects conveying a different tone and style than Biden, with her emphasis on being a former prosecutor. A lot of this is totally superficial, of course, and it makes sense she said the other day she couldn’t think of anything she’d done differently than Biden, as president.

    I can think of at least one issue on which she’s taken a substantively different position than Biden, and that’s pot legalization. Biden’s taken important steps toward decriminalization, but hasn’t come out openly in favor of full legalization, whereas she has. That could potentially be a sleeper issue attracting certain voters on the fence, and it speaks to the generational divide between her and Biden as well.

    I think, though, that the real significance of promoting herself as the “change” candidate is that it’s a message aimed squarely at voters who feel a sense of Trump fatigue. Trump isn’t your standard challenger candidate, he’s the former president, and a figure that’s dominated politics for most of the past decade whether he’s been in office or not. His message is entirely backward-looking–let’s return to the glorious days of the Trump presidency–so that gives her an opening to portray herself as the candidate looking to the future rather than maintaining the status quo, as you might ordinarily expect of a candidate from the incumbent party. And I think some voters will get the impression (correct or not) that she’s simply more competent than Biden, regardless of their similar stances on issues.

    5
  21. Kingdaddy says:

    @just nutha: Actually, I wasn’t addressing anything you specifically said yesterday, but OK.

  22. Matt Bernius says:

    @Michael Reynolds:
    I can’t wait to hear your reflections on the very British ship experience (it’s so upstairs/downstairs). And, hopefully, the North Atlantic will be kind to you!

    BTW, do they still have the view from the Bridge TV channel?

    1
  23. charontwo says:

    @Kylopod:

    Biden does not like talking about abortion and “women’s” issues, Kamala does a lot more.

    She has been interviewed at venues you would not see Biden at.

    4
  24. al Ameda says:

    @Bill Jempty:

    Baseball pitcher Luis Tiant has died. El Tiante was 83. He was the star pitcher for the 1975 Boston Red Sox who barely lost an exciting World Series to the Cincinnati Reds. Tiant won games 1* and 4 for Boston.

    … and, despite a career record of · W-L. 229-172 · ERA. 3.30 · K 2416 …
    … is NOT in the Hall of Fame.
    I guarantee you, if Tiant was a Yankee, he’d be in the Hall.

    8
  25. Michael Reynolds says:

    @Matt Bernius:
    They do, but not much to see at the moment.

    Well, there is the Britishness of the food and the Britishness of WiFi, but the formality of it I kind of like. I barely ever worked in an office, so a jacket and tie never came to symbolize oppression. And thanks to strength of character (Mounjaro) I have my weight in the ‘eh, good enough’ zone.

    My wife mocks me for being so (uncharacteristically) willing to comply, and I hit her back with, ‘You don’t understand, you have middle class pretty white girl privilege, I was a poor schlub.’ That’s right, I went all woke on her.

    I don’t mind the fact that we have a butler. Just haven’t quite figured out what to do with him.

    4
  26. Michael Reynolds says:

    @Matt Bernius:
    Hmm, edit key’s gone. Did you do The Crossing?

    1
  27. just nutha says:

    @Kingdaddy: I didn’t think you were. My point is that the blind faith argument is motivated by ill will toward specific populations, not puzzlement about how faith works and what it does to the faithful. It’s an ad hominem attack disguised as concern/reason.

    The irony to me is that the critics of blind faith are frequently “stay out of my business” types also. I endorse their position. And suggest they lead by example.

    4
  28. Jay L Gischer says:

    Huh. When I compare the lies about “Democrats control the weather” with the lies about “Kamala spent all the FEMA money on housing illegal immigrants”, the former seems a lot less damaging. And a lot less believable, honestly. (N.B. I don’t believe either!)

    I kind of wonder what’s going on here?

    4
  29. CSK says:

    @Michael Reynolds:

    Testing edit key.

    ETA: Mine works.

  30. Paul L. says:

    [Part of this post was edited out because it would have just started a flame war. As usual I recommend you create a post on your own blog about it an link to that post. Or find a way to share the link in a more neutral way, because the framing of it was the issue – Matt]

    @Kingdaddy:
    Reading the banned misogynistic John Norman Gor books
    Heroine of the Gor movies Talena is a villain in the book Magicians of Gor

  31. Mikey says:

    @Jay L Gischer:

    I kind of wonder what’s going on here?

    Some of the shit doesn’t stick to the wall as well as other of the shit.

    1
  32. Scott says:

    WRT to Trump’s calls with Putin. If such calls happened, wouldn’t the NSA have recordings of them?

    1
  33. Kathy says:

    I may do meatballs in chipotle sauce with kasha and rice this weekend, maybe air fried potatoes on the side.

    I’m also trying to figure out a dessert of sorts. I’ve a recipe stashed somewhere for something vaguely like cheesecake, which uses cottage cheese and yogurt for the filling. It’s quite nice, just not quite cheesecake. I want to add peanut butter to it, and make a crust with Special K for some reason. But that sounds like a lot more work than I want to put in. Maybe without a crust, like I usually do it.

    2
  34. MarkedMan says:

    @Michael Reynolds: The dressing up thing never oppressed me. I went to Catholic grade schools (actual uniform with ties), Catholic high school (dress shoes, slacks, dress shirt, tie) and for the first 10 years of my working life had essentially the same dress code as high school, with the tie then being abandoned but the rest still in place. Since then I’ve voluntarily stuck to that. I find it the opposite of oppressive. I come home from work, change my clothes and, BAM!, I’m in non-work mode and mindset. That changing of the clothes is key. Even when I dress up to go out to dinner or something the clothes are different than the ones I wear to work.

    4
  35. Mister Bluster says:

    @Michael Reynolds:..The Atlantic ocean is quite large.

    I chuckled at first and was then reminded of this passage from my bible.

    Sometimes it was good to fight back. I hadn’t planned to do anything violent. It just happened. One moment Snoony was pushing me and the next moment my fist was through Mr Schechter’s window. I had injured my wrist, generated an unexpected medical expense, broken a plate glass window, and no one was mad at me. As for Snoony, he was more friendly than ever.
    I puzzled over what the lesson was. But it was much more pleasant to work it out up here in the warmth of the apartment, gazing out through the living-room window into Lower New York Bay, than to risk some new misadventure on the streets below.
    As she often did, my mother had changed her clothes and made up her face in anticipation of my father’s arrival. We talked about my fight with Snoony. The Sun was almost setting and together we looked out across the choppy waters.
    ‘There are people fighting out there, killing each other,’ she said, waving vaguely across the Atlantic. I peered intently.
    ‘I know,’ I replied. ‘I can see them.’
    ‘No, you can’t,’ she replied, sceptically, almost severely, before returning to the kitchen. ‘They’re too far away.’
    How could she know whether I could see them or not? I wondered. Squinting, I had thought I’d made out a thin strip of land at the horizon on which tiny figures were pushing and shoving and duelling with swords as they did in my comic books. But maybe she was right. Maybe it had just been my imagination, a little like the midnight monsters that still, on occasion, awakened me from a deep sleep, my pyjamas drenched in sweat, my heart pounding.
    How can you tell when someone is only imagining? I gazed out across the grey waters until night fell and I was called to wash my hands for dinner.

    The Demon-Haunted World
    Science as a Candle in the Dark
    Carl Sagan
    1997

    2
  36. Beth says:

    @Scott:

    I was wondering the same thing.

  37. CSK says:

    Trump threw a tantrum on Truth Social because Howard Stern interviewed Kamala Harris.

  38. CSK says:

    @Scott: @Beth:

    If the calls took place after Trump left office, though, would the NSA have records of them?

  39. gVOR10 says:

    @Rick DeMent:

    people actually convinced that the Democrats could control the weather.

    Atrios quotes Rolling Stone on Trump thinking China had a hurricane weapon.

    Near the beginning of Donald Trump’s time in office, the then-president had a pressing question for his national-security aides and administration officials: Does China have the secret technology — a weapon, even — to create large, man-made hurricanes and then launch them at the United States? And if so, would this constitute an act of war by a foreign power, and could the U.S. retaliate militarily? Then-President Trump repeatedly asked about this, according to two former senior administration officials and a third person briefed on the matter.

    Mr. President, we must not allow a hurricane gun gap.

    We all judge truth the same way, is a statement consistent with the rest of our worldview. And some of us have some very incomplete and ill informed worldviews.

    1
  40. Matt Bernius says:

    @Michael Reynolds:

    Did you do The Crossing?

    More times than I can count–I worked aboard the Queen Elizabeth II in college. So I was the “Downstairs” side of the “Upstairs/Downstairs” situation. Though because it was a co-op (paid internship) we actually were able to go above decks afterhours–most of the crew could not do that.

    There’s an entire city under your feet where all the crew live and party (there were three crew bars on the QE2).

    5
  41. gVOR10 says:

    @CSK: The NSA is failing down badly on the job if they haven’t been recording Trump’s calls. But can they tell anybody?

    2
  42. just nutha says:

    @MarkedMan: I was very much a dress differently than work clothes guy until I became a teacher. The combination of teachers deciding to dress like the inmates and greatly reduced income because of untenured employment eliminated my ability to have 2 sets of clothes. The shift from blue collar to white collar work eliminated the need to. And along the way, evangelicalism shifting the focus of religion from dress as a symbol of reverence to “come as you are, we’re going to Dad’s house” (He won’t mind) across most of American christianity (not a typo) finished the job.

    2
  43. charontwo says:

    @CSK:

    I usually get the edit key but today not always.

  44. dazedandconfused says:

    @gVOR10: Somewhat unlikely the NSA conducted espionage on their own boss, but if they did, it’s highly likely that unless there was clear and irrefutable evidence of treason they destroyed all evidence of it immediately. Begging Putin to let him build a Trump Casino or golf course in Moscow wouldn’t qualify.

  45. charontwo says:

    @gVOR10:

    Just came across something that speaks to that:

    Link

    Are You There Vlad? It’s Me, Donald

    by Benjamin Parker

    As noted above, Bob Woodward’s book excerpts were released yesterday, in which he reported that since leaving office, Donald Trump has had at least seven private phone conversations with Russian President Vladimir Putin.

    Both the Kremlin and Trump campaign are denying it. But Woodward’s track record is hard to argue with. And, tellingly, he writes that Biden’s Director of National Intelligence Avril Haines “carefully hedged” when asked about the calls.

    The Bulwark spoke to Lawrence Pfeiffer, director of the Michael V. Hayden Center for Intelligence, Policy, and National Security at George Mason University, about whether the United States intelligence community might have a record of those calls, and under what conditions those records could become public. Pfeiffer is a former senior intelligence official. This interview has been edited for length and clarity.

    The Bulwark: What are the odds that somewhere in the intelligence community, there’s a record of what was said on these phone calls between Trump and Putin? And to the degree you can answer, how and why do you think the IC would have collected that information?

    Larry Pfeiffer: I have no idea if anybody has collected anything, nor if they’ve got the capability to target Vladimir Putin’s private cell phone. If it were to have been collected, it would likely be because the Russian side of the phone call would have been targeted as a legitimate foreign intelligence target—either Putin’s phone, his office phone, his aide’s phone, something along those lines. There’s always a possibility that it could be encrypted, which means maybe all we have is the fact of the call and not the content of the call.

    If the call was intercepted, it would likely have been intercepted by NSA. The only way anyone in the domestic side of things like the FBI would have the call is if there was some active criminal investigation against the U.S. end of that phone call, and I’m not sure there’s an active U.S. investigation into Trump right now.

    Let’s say they did intercept the call and they’ve got the content. If the content doesn’t meet any kind of priority requirements set by the president and the National Security Council for foreign intelligence—for example, if it was a phone call about their respective golf games—then as soon as it was determined that this call was not of foreign intelligence value, they would stop listening to it and delete it.

    If the content did have foreign intelligence value, then a report could possibly be written. But the report would be written exclusively about the foreigner and the U.S. person would be protected in the text of the report. They would be identified as ‘U.S. Person No. 1,’ or something along those lines.

    If ‘U.S. Person No. 1’ was somebody like a president, former president, or a current congressman or senator, that report would go through a sensitivity check, probably all the way up to the director. And if it were to go out, it would go out to a very limited [number of] people. The parallel would be the calls that occurred between Michael Flynn and [then-Russian ambassador to the United States Sergei] Kislyak back when Trump was not yet president. That information was reported to a small group of people. [Flynn’s] name was masked in the report.

    TB: If there was information collected, if there was a report, how many people in total and what people do you think would have access to that information or have the report?

    LP: There would be a handful of people at NSA who would have handled the raw material and produced the report, maybe 10 to 15 people. A report like that would likely have gone to a small handful of the senior most people in government—the attorney general, the president and the vice president, maybe the national security advisor. It would probably be hard copy only, not electronic, and it would be hand-delivered.

    TB: Under what circumstances could this information, if it exists, become public? If it goes through the normal process of classification and declassification, how long do you think it might be until we—or historians—find out what was in those calls, if ever?

    LP: I would, again, look back to what happened with the Flynn calls. I think it took a press leak before anything happened. Not that I’m encouraging that.

  46. Bobert says:

    @just nutha: perhaps I wasn’t as clear as I intended. If the Harris campaign is itself projecting they are agents of “change”, the change they are referring to is a change in the nature and character of political campaigning.
    But I’m more inclined to think that SOME media are providing their own interpretation of Harris as a “change” candidate.

  47. wr says:

    @Paul L.: “Reading the banned misogynistic John Norman Gor books”

    Whoever banned them did a pretty bad job of it, considering you can find 38 of them on Amazon in paperback or digital — and if you’re a Kindle Unlimited member you can have them for free.

    Is it possible that they weren’t really banned, it was just that your mommy told you they were so you’d stop bugging her to buy them for you?

    5
  48. Matt says:

    @Jen: Pretty sure the western states relying on the ever dwindling water supplies would become perma blue states if they could get rain consistently via a weather control machine..

    It’s such a dumb conspiracy theory.

    3
  49. Kathy says:

    @Matt:

    It’s such a dumb conspiracy theory.

    Pleonasm watch activated.

    1
  50. just nutha says:

    @Bobert: I think that Harris is trying to portray herself as a change and that the press is willing to abet this goal. I’m not following the race (Multnomah County, OR, is roughly D+80) and only basing my opinion on what I hear others saying. “If” makes a big difference in your original statement, though.

  51. Gustopher says:

    @Paul L.:

    [Part of this post was edited out because it would have just started a flame war. As usual I recommend you create a post on your own blog about it an link to that post. Or find a way to share the link in a more neutral way, because the framing of it was the issue – Matt]

    I’m assuming he was bringing up vi vs. emacs. I have strong feelings on the subject.

    2
  52. Gustopher says:

    @wr:

    Is it possible that they [John Norman’s Gor books] weren’t really banned, it was just that your mommy told you they were so you’d stop bugging her to buy them for you?

    I remember reading the Gor novels when I was about 10. There was jousting on birds (Tarns, they called them!) and it was great. I loved those books.

    They were like a poorly written Edgar Rice Burroughs series, but I had already read ERB’s Mars, Venus, Jupiter, Moon, Tarzan, and Pelucidor series, and even his book about Caligula, so I was tapped out and this was what was there.

    I skimmed over all the romance, but I loved those poorly written books.

    They also get bogged down surprisingly often in how to tie knots. For the amount of knot tying in those books, they really needed some diagrams.

    I suspect that revisiting them today would be a different experience.

    2
  53. Kurtz says:

    @gVOR10:

    How the weather?

  54. Kylopod says:

    @Kurtz: You know, it just occurred to me, with politics as acrimonious as it’s become, we no longer can avoid the situation by “talking about the weather.”

    2
  55. Kurtz says:

    @Kylopod:

    Haha. gVOR is doing battle with Milton right now.

    1
  56. Michael Reynolds says:

    @Matt Bernius:
    I’m sitting in the nicest suite on the QM2 and still thinking I’m one of them, one of the workers. My tastes and my means and my class loyalties are somewhat in conflict.

    We are very easy to work for. An ex-waiter and an ex-waitress, who also cleaned homes and worked as motel maids in effect, there’s no safer bet in the tipping world than the two of us.

    We are – this will not shock you – pretty impenetrably aloof from other passengers. And I’m not just saying this because I’m biased, but I have far and away the hottest girl on-board on my arm. Granted, the median age is just pre-feeble. It’s her 68th birthday today.

    5
  57. gVOR10 says:

    @Kurtz: Looks like the eye of Milton is going ashore in a few hours between Sarasota and Bradenton. Bad for them, but about 50 miles north of us. We’re looking at maybe 50 mph winds, no rain at the moment, and maybe 6″ when it settles out. Likely going to be bad further north, but we’re OK. Power’s out, but if it isn’t back in the morning I’ll fire up the generator.

    1
  58. MarkedMan says:

    @Michael Reynolds: How’s the Dramamine working today?

  59. Kurtz says:

    @gVOR10:

    Power is on here. Mostly wind. Not much rain. I thought you were closer to Sarasota.

    1
  60. Michael Reynolds says:

    @MarkedMan:
    I have had zero seasickness. Pressure point wristbands and Scopalamine transdermal. It turns out the instructions pretty clearly say one patch every three days, as opposed to the two in 24 hours that had me staggering around like a drunk. I’ve been fine. And we kind of like the cradle will rock thing at night.

    They do force you to use the blackout curtains at night. Something to do with navigation, they say. Or maybe Jerry submarines.

    4
  61. Flat Earth Luddite says:

    @gVOR10:

    Yes, they have them. No,they can’t tell us. Or won’t. You decide what you want to believe. After all, truth isn’t immutable.

    2
  62. Flat Earth Luddite says:

    @Michael Reynolds:

    Periscope off to porr, Captain!

    2
  63. Slugger says:

    What is the deductible on typical flood insurance? I have earthquake insurance that has a $100,000 deductible because insurance companies think people will game them for every crack if the deductible was lower.

    1
  64. Bill Jempty says:

    @Kurtz: Milton came ashore at Siesta Key. That’s near Sarasota.

    I have a nephew named Kent who is a nurse. After working in England for two years, Kent came to the United States to live and work last month. Where? Sarasota.

    Welcome to Florida, Kent. Don’t worry, he is in Naples with his girlfriend and doing fine. At least one of Kent’s possessions has survived.

  65. DrDaveT says:

    @Michael Reynolds:

    Granted, the median age is just pre-feeble.

    I just got home from a Viking Ocean cruise from NYC to Montreal. We chose it as a cruise that my aging parents could use their saved-up Viking credit on, despite my mother’s increasing mobility issues. Apparently, the rest of the world was thinking the same thing, because the median age was definitely post-feeble, especially if you don’t count the children escorting their parents (like me). I’m used to lots of gray hair on pricey cruises, but this was way beyond anything I’d seen before. Only a small minority of passengers could manage a brisk walk in a straight line.

    3
  66. DrDaveT says:

    @Not the IT Dept.:

    The Florida agency’s letter suggested the stations could face criminal charges for airing the ad. It said First Amendment free speech rights of TV stations do not “include free rein to disseminate false advertisements which, if believed, would likely have a detrimental effect on the lives and health of pregnant women in Florida.”

    So, presumably that agency would agree that Florida TV stations do not have free rein to air Trump speeches? If they’re going to start requiring fact-checking, they aren’t going to like the outcome.

    3
  67. gVOR10 says:

    @Kurtz: North Port. 20 or 30 miles to Sarasota, 50 to Bradenton.

    Looks like it came in at Lido Key. (Next Key north of Siesta.) That will have aimed it right at downtown Sarasota. Last time I looked Weather Channel said Sarasota had 20 mph winds, rising quickly to 90 plus as the eye passed. Square hit on a largish city. This could be very bad.

    1
  68. Paul L. says:

    @wr:
    Using the Democrats LBGTQIAXYZ++ definition of a banned book. You can buy Gender Queer on Amazon too.
    Walz told Vance that the Republicans ban books. From the book

    being Gorean, and thus not being inhibited or confused by negativistic, antibiological traditions

  69. Jax says:

    @Kurtz: Yay, so glad to see you commenting! I hope all our other Floridian’s stay safe the next few days!

    1
  70. Jen says:

    @Slugger: It can range from $1,000 to $10,000, each, for dwelling and property. The thing with flooding is that you almost always exceed your deductible. The damage done by water is massive.