Wednesday’s Forum
Steven L. Taylor
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Wednesday, April 23, 2025
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106 comments
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About Steven L. Taylor
Steven L. Taylor is a retired Professor of Political Science and former College of Arts and Sciences Dean. His main areas of expertise include parties, elections, and the institutional design of democracies. His most recent book is the co-authored
A Different Democracy: American Government in a 31-Country Perspective. He earned his Ph.D. from the University of Texas and his BA from the University of California, Irvine. He has been blogging since 2003 (originally at the now defunct Poliblog).
Follow Steven on
Twitter and/or
BlueSky.
Some of you may have noticed stocks are up again in futures trading (dollar not so much).
Perhaps this:
“Krugman”
snip
As I have pointed out before, facing off against China was stupidly absurd, derived from the delusion the U.S. was in the stronger position. In reality, the U.S. is playing poker with a busted straight while China has a real flush.
I expect China will force concessions from Trump.
@charontwo:
Not mentioned is how they caved to Harvard.
Trump folds like a cheap lawn chair under his enormous diaper-covered arse.
And in the meantime he is doing to Musk what he did the the My Pillow guy and Rudy Giuliani.
@charontwo:
I see your insider trading and raise you one Perestroika
But yeah, when I saw the stock market line turn green last night I knew some insider trading shit had started. I will react with profound glee when those assholes screw up and lose everything.
I never realized the stock market was this gullible. Did the traders attend Trump University?
It’s fun to see right-wingers once again desperately try hard to convince themselves that they’re Counter Culture.
When I was in grad school it was We’re Politically Incorrect – and even today it’s the same thing with Andrew Schultz. “I voted for Trump because He Gotz Laid, Bro”.. Are we really saying any one of these influencers would have voted for Kamala if she included how much she enjoys her husband in rallies?
When was the last time “conservatism” was actually cool…. Reaganism while snorting coke? Stephen Colbert when they actually thought he was on their side and not doing satire?
Of course the only way they can “feel good” and avoid confronting the actual misogynistic backlash [and politician town halls] is to insulate themselves and tell each other They’re SO Cool.
Patrick Bateman used to be considered a sign of sociopathy… because that character from American Psycho is pretty far down the dark triad scale. The fact that he’s now actually the conservative ideal male should tell the rest of us exactly who and what conservatism is.
An essay from Jon Duffy, retired Navy Captain. His 30-year career included the command of two warships and a squadron of destroyers, as well as policy positions in the Pentagon, on Capitol Hill, and on the National Security Council in the White House.
I went to the Naval Academy to defend freedom, not to dismantle it
@Gavin: “Are we really saying any one of these influencers would have voted for Kamala if she included how much she enjoys her husband in rallies?”
Of course not. Men who like sex are studs and bros; women who like sex are hos and bitches.
@Gavin: The way I’ve heard it is that conservative has become punk rock. (That’s what Milo Y. was saying–and where is he now?) Of course, the fact that they think punk is still cool is itself a mark of how out-of-touch they are. And if there’s any punk subculture they resemble, it’s the one the Dead Kennedys had certain choice words for.
@Kylopod:
Speaking of, I don’t see conservatives thinking this is cool, and I don’t see how it’s not relevant… We’ve got a bigger problem now
@Kylopod:..Dead Kennedys…
Good grief! U Tube wants me to sign in to verify my age. I don’t think that I’ve ever signed in to the tube for anything before.
I can see the title of the song Nazi Punks Fuck Off before I sign in.
What does U Tube think it’s protecting me from?
God Damn do gooder busybodies!
(when I entered gooder into the New Oxford American Dictionary provided with my MacBook Air to see if it is a word it came up Goober. That fits too.)
The above mentioned You Tube sign-in request mentions something about Community Guidelines.
I can Google Nazi Punks Fuck Off and see at least two videos of the Dead Kennedys song without any sign in request on You Tube. The You Tube Community Guidelines chumps must be using Signal to set up their sign-in restrictions.
@Gavin: the desperation of the right to want to appear cool is one of the most pathetic aspects of this nightmare.
I am old enough to remember when guys would wear wigs during the week to hide their long hair, not a commitment to the hippie counterculture, as much as hoping to find a hippie chick into free love on the weekend. Those posers have morphed into world class grifters.
This is the very definition of chutzpah.
The felon claims the country cannot possibly give every undocumented alien subject to deportation a trial, while at the same time he’s firing immigration judges.
Well, if you can’t afford due process for people subject to deportation, then you can’t deport them. You would not throw people in jail without due process because you can’t give every criminal a trial (the felon rapist would, because of course he would, but we’re talking about civilized people here). Even Stalin had the pretense of a trial for people already doomed to death or years of hardship and misery.
If the US needs to reverse its founding principles and become a country of men rather than law, then Americans should at least pick better men than the felon, the chief nazi, the lush, the dog killer, and the various clueless people engaged in devising economic policy that will hold for more than three days at a time.
@charontwo:
@Beth:
The markets seem to be rising because the rapist may lower the tariffs on china “substantially.”
We have a saying at the office: substantial is not a number*
When the tariffs are at 145%, reducing them to 100% is substantial. To 72.5% is very substantial. Both are still insane.
*And also: a bunch is not a number.
@charontwo: The new reality os that insider trading is legal as long as the right people are the insiders. And the government is providing the insider info. I would assume that Trump will make billions off his presidency, some from his business interests, some from direct payments. It’s the new reality.
I once described my job to a friend with a Trainspotting metaphor. Every executive worth their salt wants to find the suppository opium. Well, it’s my job to build the worst toilet in Scotland.
I once described my job to a friend with a Trainspotting metaphor. Every executive worth their salt wants to find the gleaming, glowing suppository opium. Well, it’s my job to build the worst toilet in Scotland.
@Kathy:
I have not been closely, but I am guessing so far just talk. I assume nothing public from China, no way to tell if they have privately offered any concessions.
As was pointed out over at LGM, Trump has great negotiating skills.
https://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2025/04/art-of-the-squeal
Trump is a pussy, a wimp, a weak-ass little bitch. The bond market says, ‘hey, knock it off,’ and Trump folds.
I hope some true MAGAt will come along and explain why it is that whenever Trump announces a new policy the markets collapse. And every time he caves the markets go back up. Because to an outside observer it looks like Trump doesn’t know WTF he’s doing. In fact, that’s exactly how it looks.
The only thing he’s any good at is corruption.
Xi vs. Trump round one goes to Xi.
And how’s that retaking of Panama coming along?
And the take-over of Canada?
And Greenland?
And where’s Elon?
And what the holy hell is going on with the drunk talk show host SecDef?
And ole’ worm brain?
Trump has united the entire world in contempt of the United States. The entire world. Not a single country has any respect for us. Literally the only members of the human race who still respect Trump are his MAGA cult. They’re the only ones who still can’t see that their demi-god has no clothes.
@Kathy: One of the most obvious and necessary solutions to the immigration problem (i.e., immigrants who arrived at a port of entry waiting for their status to be determined) has long been to hire more immigration judges – a LOT MORE. I believe the bipartisan bill that Trump killed included increased hiring, and now Elon’s hackers have discovered that immigration judges actually get paid, dipstick facto: FRAUD/WASTE/ABUSE!
@charontwo:
Some people go into negotiations assuming everything’s settled if they present their position as though the other party has already agreed to it, even without first hearing it.
Others figure that if they announce an unspecified deal publicly, the other party will have no choice but to come to some kind of agreement, in order not to make the claimant look like a liar.
Both tend to crash and burn against opponents that are not weak or desperate.
@Charley in Cleveland: I see Doggy Boy (I know it’s pronounced like the old Venetian ruler, but my pronunciation seems more apt) is leaving DC to spend more time with his
familycompany. I’m getting some pleasant schadenfreude out of picturing the feelings of Tesla’s full time managers to that news.@Gavin:
I had had an armband that said “NAZI punks / FUCK OFF” in 1979. Wore it on my jacket.
Before there were boy bands, there were Oi! bands.
There is a long history of right wing edge lords flirting with, or copulation with Nazism via edge punk.
Repulsive ideas repulse people. The uptake is only amongst people primed for it.
Reminds me of folks like Andrew Tate. Incels, “nice guys ™”, creepers, “alphas”, etc. There is a subset of RWs that wants to latch onto a counter-culture thing and make it icky.
“Bulwark”
We now have two cases of insider info being provided by this administration, the tweet when there was the tariff pause (market went up 10% on a few hours), and Bessent’s little chat with business leaders (market went up 2.5% yesterday).
I assume that there is a group of people who have access to insider info on a regular basis and are making BILLIONS off of this info. What’s Trump’s cut? Maybe this is the strategy behind the tariffs, market manipulation. Trump could care less about actual policy. He’ll fold and declare victory, and if the market rights itself it will be forgotten.
From Paul’s link:
Gorsuch asks if the books with drag queens were part of the English curriculum rather than human sexuality to influence them.
The attorney for Montgomery County responds it is to influence them toward civility.
Gorsuch replies, “whatever, it’s to influence them”
Gorsuch acts like he doesn’t have a clue how a vacuum works. He knows better, but whatever, I guess.
This is about angry parents ginned up by cynical people bastardizing ideals for a buck.
They want to enforce a narrow conformity in service to freedom.
Somewhere, Orwell is shaking his head.
We are disappearing student protesters dissenting to / objecting to another country’s war methods.
How is a perfectly defensible and valid criticism of a foreign country’s war conduct now a reason for revocation of resident status, imprisonment, and deportation?
This should be the story of the decade, but it’s yesterday’s news, now. This stuff is at the core.
@Charley in Cleveland:
dipstick facto: FRAUD/WASTE/ABUSE!
We have a winner!!!
But you made coffee come out of my nose…
@Kurtz: Orwell would appreciate your drag queen word search…for civility.
@Fortune:
I thought you weren’t interested in my comments.
For the sake of discussion, can you explain back to me the point I was making?
Then can you explain how relating what was said in court is some sort of word search?
Push coming to shove.
Which side are you on?
I arrived in France this morning, by way of Germany, by way of the US. It was the most uneventful and frictionless air travel I have experienced in a few years.
Everything ran on time. Dare I say there appeared to be some actual efficiency happening. And best of all, there were no collisions!
My fellow travelers were surprisingly considerate and patient. So too were the airport and flight staff. And no collisions!
There were a few fussy children, because that is their nature. But no one seemed bothered — no stink eyes or dramatic sighs to be noticed. There’s a lesson in there somewhere.
And now I must return to good eating, good drinking, and good collaborating.
Is this / am I indulgent? Damn right!
To borrow from Jack Gilbert: I’m risking delight… I’m stubbornly holding tight to gladness in the ruthless furnace of this world. I invite others to do the same.
@Kurtz: Orwell was looking at the top of an iceberg and thought he was looking at the mountain itself.
@Kurtz: My mistake, you’re supposed to look for the drag queen, not the phrase “drag queen”.
Speaking of Europe, the prospects of an eclipse trip next year are looking dim. Too much instability, too many unexpected expenses I’m helping my mom with. As luck would have it, there will be another total eclipse in 2027 (and then none for a long while).
In this one, the path of totality passes over southern Spain, and over Gibraltar. I thought that would be a good reason to visit the latter, but the prices are insane. It costs like half as much to fly to southern Spain as to Gibraltar. Apparently only British Airways and EasyJet fly there. I need to look into it, surely there are other ways to get there.
@Fortune:
I asked two questions.
You ignored one.
Your subsequent comment did nothing to clarify your position.
I am more than happy to have a discussion. I am interested in what you think, but I cannot divine it from what you are writing.
@just nutha:
I bet Orwell didn’t count on Dumb Brother taking over the Party.
@Kurtz: I was trying to be polite, but here goes: I read your comment because it wasn’t 2000 words long and I didn’t notice it was yours. I’m not interested in a dialogue with you, and it’s up to you if you feel dissatisfied if I haven’t answered all your questions. It’s absurd when someone hides behind the word “civility” as he teaches a 3 year old about drag, and it’s Orwellian of you to cry “Orwell” when he gets challenged on it.
Trump wants to give Crimea to Putin.
https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-war-peace-talks-london-4f35dc70f521e2363218f4c40748caba
Of course Doughboy is misrepresenting the course of events that led to Crimeas fall.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexation_of_Crimea_by_the_Russian_Federation
My drag name would be Magenta. I wear way too much olive and gray. I need to brighten up my wardrobe day to day. I’m boring in presentation. I present as gray and olive.
My pallette should be more encompassing.
@Fortune: So your position is it’s absurd to teach children not to be judgmental about the way other people dress? I just want to clarify at what point you think “here are some humans you might encounter, don’t be an asshole” no longer applies.
@de stijl:
Godfather of the 4/8chan trolls and their real-life counterparts, Elon’s “Roman salute” being just one recent example.
(And come to think of it, comparing Elon to a punk rocker is pretty hilarious. What would his punk name be? Ass Burger King? Sounds more like something out of some very niche form of porn.)
@Fortune:
Pardon me for expecting discussion on a discussion forum. I posted with the expectation that you would ignore it. My fault, because this is not the first time you have claimed disinterest. You replied. You win, I guess.
I am impressed that you managed to fail to understand the basic point of my post, and demonstrate your misunderstanding of Orwell in so few words.
You win, I guess.
Conformity is freedom!
Run along, now.
To repeat: The Secretary of the Treasury, Scott Bessent told a closed door meeting with people from the investment community of future plans involving tariffs. The market has gone up more than 5% in the last two days. This might be the single most corrupt thing the Trump administration has done. If this were a CEO he/she would be going to jail (in normal times, when there is a functioning SEC). Assuming there were people from JP Morgan, Chase, Merrill Lynch, Prudential, etc at this meeting, it would be malpractice for them not to act upon this information.
There is no possible excuse for this meeting. I take it as a given that anyone high up in the Trump administration is corrupt, but at least keep the corruption in house.
@Kurtz:
.
Bold of you to surmise this individual ever “thinks.”
Oh Hell yeah!!!
See ya Dick!
@Gavin:
Michael J. Fox as Alex P. Keating.
And before that… the Nazis had really good uniforms.
@Gustopher: I remember as a kid in the ’80s looking at a Mad Magazine a couple of decades old, and in one of the strips a group of college students are chatting. One guy says he’s a Republican, he’s asked why, and he answers “Because my father is a Republican.” Then this girl says she’s a Democrat, is asked why, and she answers “Because my father is a Republican.” My parents had to explain that joke to me.
@Beth: I appreciate Durbin’s language here, on passing the torch. I noted this, too, from your link:
I’m loving how we on the left have just memory holed how subsequent events proved Schumer, Durbin and the rest substantively right in declining to help Trump/Musk shutdown government and thereby latch Democrats to the economic troubles the public now largely blames on Trump alone instead.
The suddenly silent ‘move along, nothing to see here’ act from these “profoundly disappointed” “progressive groups” is comedy. At least on being stubbornly unable to admit when we are wrong, turns out some of us are not so different from MAGA on that score.
@Kurtz:
We are now seeing actual Thought Police.
Disagree with Trump publicly and you might be imprisoned and deported. For disagreeing on how Israeli Likud government is conducting it’s Gaza war. A war in a foreign country.
Let me get this straight, you can be imprisoned and expelled from the US for your stated opinion about a foreign war? On what grounds?
And you aren’t native born unless your progenitors are US born. Didn’t we pass an amendment to the the constitution about that very same situation?
I’m living in interesting times. I dislike it, greatly.
@Daryl:
Immediate Ukrainian accession to NATO seems like the only somewhat-fair trade for US recognition of Russian Crimea. I wonder what Zelenskyy and Ukrainian leaders will decide/counter.
@Paul L.: I’m not sure they are Nazis, from the Nazi region of Germany and all that entails, but they are certainly Christian Nationalists, which has a significant overlap with Nazis.
But, they aren’t trying to ban books. In this case they are trying to erase people from public existence, and they want the school system to help in that goal.
@DK:
Yeah, to the extent anything has been said at all, it has consisted of Sunday School moral stands and a checklist of buzzwords.
Oh, damaging the finish on a Tesla is terrorism. Abortion is the equivalent of suicide bombing. The latter is the one time Fortune tried to make an actual argument, and failed miserably to use biological facts appropriately.
I suspect the reason he is able to discuss things with Bernius is because these days, Matt tends to write mostly about the topics generating the most discussion. So there are plenty of words to repeat.
You and I both grew up in the same state, and not the major city. I went to undergrad at an SBC affiliated college. Yet, somehow, neither of us could possibly be familiar with conservatism, as per a recent discussion.
As a nonbeliever, I find the eschatological bent of the Christian Right offensive. They act more like Pharisees and Sadducees than Jesus. Their worldview is focused on Revelation more than the Gospel.
@DK:
Have they?
Most Americans are chugging along, blithely unaware that we are having a massive constitutional crisis that will have profound effects on their lives for decades to come. Is that better than bringing things to a crisis sooner?
I don’t think you can really make that claim with any certainty. Let alone your speculation on whether Trump wanted a shutdown, and how the public would react.
Keep in mind that the CR also contained language declaring the rest of the year a single legislative day, which guts the rule that any member can force a vote on the “economic emergency” declared by Trump after 30 days, and on the tariffs after 30 days.
What’s done is done, but you can’t confidently say it was for the better unless you assume that Democrats cannot tie the shutdown to the economic chaos the Trump administration is causing. And it certainly hasn’t been proven (where is your control group”)
@DK:
I dunno. I’m definitely one of the lefties that was profoundly pissed at Durbin. He was fine for years, but he should have stepped aside in 2020. He’s personally responsible for allowing the judiciary get screwed up and changed the rules to block Sheldon Whitehouse from taking over the judiciary committee. That fuck up was one more step on the road to where we are.
If he had some stones he’d get Pritzger to appoint Underwood or Stratton and retire tomorrow. I mean, IL is going to send a Dem back no matter what.
So, I checked and I’m sure I voted for Durbin in his first senate run, which was my first election. In 1996. I just can’t remember if I voted in the primary. I know I voted for him though cause he’s like half Lithuanian and my grandma loved him for that.
@Fortune: I’m pretty sure I was around four when I first saw Bugs Bunny in drag as a hero to a story.
Must have been a sad childhood not having Looney Toons…explains a lot though.
These days Dems call anyone a Nazi, even a group that literally quoted Hitler! What is the world coming to? Next thing you know they’ll be applying the epithet to a man who does Nazi salutes at rallies and praises tweets declaring Jews to be pushing anti-white propaganda.
@de stijl: The Onion is having a dark humor field day with this: Trump Announces Seal Team 6 Has Eliminated Student Protestor in Daring Overnight Raid
I felt bad for laughing.
FYI, for anyone interested in learning more about the content in one of the books in contention: Pride Puppy, the entire contents are posted to YouTube. It’s an a read format.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sisIwl07mc4
YMWV (Your Milage Will Vary) with it. The core content is really innocuous. The format is an A-Z book. It does feature very mild LGBTQ+ iconography. The text doesn’t really present any particular argument or acknowledgment of LGBTQ+ themes or ideas. Yes, there is what I assume to be a drag queen presented with “Q.” The entry is “Q is for Queen in a beautiful dress,” and the accompanying picture could easily be taken for a woman in a dress.
I can understand (but not agree with) conservative objections to this–which I think are primarily based in believing being LGBTQ+ as a choice and therefore something someone can be converted to.
And I don’t personally think that this book is in any way sexualizing the parade or, more importantly, is propagandizing being gay/queer/etc. Admittedly, if your faith is that being LGBTQ+ is fundamentally wrong, then the issue is that any move towards acceptance is fundamentally anti-faith. As with the issue of abortion, I see this as a stark binary issue where there is no middle ground or possibility for compromise.
I don’t have kids. That said, if I did, I personally wouldn’t have any issue with them seeing or reading the book.
I also don’t think having a parental line-by-line veto of school texts is a particularly good idea.
@Thomm:
I blame Looney Tunes and Thundercats for our ongoing furry epidemic.
After watching Target’s foot traffic fall precipitously, I am not surprised to read that shareholders at both Goldman Sachs and Levi Strauss rejected anti-DEI proposals today.
The vote at Goldman Sachs was 98% to 2%.
@Kurtz:
I’m a Saddussy…
I’ll see myself out…
Eh, one more Miss Bashful cause she’s awesome. Fortune avert your sensitive eyes!!!
@Gustopher:
I don’t buy the premise. I don’t think elected Democrats should be in the business of creating crises.
If I tell my stubborn kid not to touch the stove, but they’re determined to anyway, I may well decide not to interfere until after they are sufficiently burnt to learn the FAFO lesson on their own.
But burn them myself? Nah.
I don’t recall any such doubt from those who screamed at Schumer on how wrong he was to not help Trump/Musk shutdown government. They were quite certain of their rightness, not lacking for confidence in their criticisms, neither admitting their views were rooted in speculative predictions about future public opinion and Trump response.
Schumer/Durbin’s critics are not the only ones to get to confidently assert assumptions. I don’t subscribe to the asymmetrical warfare bit, where only progressive left and MAGA right get to be unapologetic, while the rest must bow, scrape, genuflect, and self-flagellate.
So yes, based on what I’ve observed, I believe what I said and see no pressing need to hedge.
By the way, does building a makeup studio at the Pentagon at taxpayer expense qualify as “waste/fraud/abuse”?
If yes (and it is definitely a yes), then I have a hot tip for DOGE.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/hegseth-orders-makeup-studio-installed-pentagon/
@Kylopod:
That swasticar has already driven off a cliff to the tune of a 71% drop in sales.
@Matt Bernius:
I think this is going to end up being another area where the Christian Nationalists and assorted freak show conservatives are going to end up doing so much damage to the country that we’re going end up having to have multiple amendments to fix the things they are destroying. No one wants to live in their bullshit paradise and eventually they are all going to end up fighting each other because their Christianities are incompatible with each other and forget other religions.
@de stijl:
Orwell also identified himself as a democratic socialist in an essay he wrote for a leftist magazine.
Then again, Rufo praises Gramsci, an anti-fascist Marxist.
@Matt Bernius:
Thank you for the info.
On the last point, we agree. But I don’t think there is anything conservative about objecting to acknowledging existence of queer culture. It is a firmly right wing position.
I understand you’re a bridge builder, but conceding objections to acknowledgement of the existence of queer culture as merely conservative rather than authoritarian is a bridge too far.
The reason I invoked Orwell is because these objections are done in the name of rights. That is a perversion.
@Jen:
@Kathy:
Heh. A funny thing happened on the way to the vibe shift. And it was profit-mongers remembering most retail spending power is in blue states, cities, and counties.
Go antiwoke, go broke.
@Mimai:
Enjoy the efficiency. That is what governments do.
I toyed with anarchy a tiny bit in my youth, but then decided I preferred order from the state in measure. Speed limits, traffic control, untainted food, state parks, national parks, the FDA, social security, streets, property rights, renter’s rights, accredition of health care providers, highways, lane strips on highways, a legal system, snow plowing. Etc, etc.
A civics oriented government is better at delivering basic services and infrastructure than any self-organizing cooperative when it comes to the big stuff like aqueduct construction and maintenance.
Civilization begets government. This is your land. Do with it as you will bound by community constraints. Maybe it’s property begets government?
@Mimai:
Enjoy the efficiency. That is what governments do.
I toyed with anarchy a tiny bit in my youth, but then decided I preferred order from the state in measure. Speed limits, traffic control, untainted food, state parks, national parks, the FDA, social security, streets, property rights, renter’s rights, accredition of health care providers, highways, lane strips on highways, a legal system, snow plowing. Etc, etc.
A civics oriented government is better at delivering basic services and infrastructure than any self-organizing cooperative when it comes to the big stuff like aqueduct construction and maintenance.
Civilization begets government. This is your land. Do with it as you will bound by community constraints. Maybe it’s property begets government?
@Kurtz: Gorsuch also claims that the story highlights a sex worker. There is no one in the book who looks like or is acting as a sex worker. I also have to doubt that he remembers English class or his was very different. In my English class we didnt have books about English, we had stories about animals (we didnt call it animal studies), adventurers, other kids, superheroes, cowboys, etc. I thought Gorsuch was an as&hole but the lawyer wasn’t very sharp.
Steve
Steve
@steve: I’m pretty sure Gorsuch believes that drag queens are sex workers. They often put on shows and get paid so worker makes sense, and if you think playing with gender norms is inherently titillating… voila, a sex worker.
@Kathy:
I’ll laugh my ass off if I hear of someone trading it in for a Volkswagen. But at least the creator is dead.
In seriousness, I know at least two people who voted for Trump and either own or once owned an EV—though not a Tesla. However, neither is hardcore MAGA, and one of them is married to a Democrat.
Trump, after years of shitting on and mocking EVs, seems to be encouraging his supporters to buy one in order to own the libs. I suspect the number of people with both the money for that venture and the willingness to use it is a lot lower than the pissed-off former Elon fans. Who knew that burning bridges with your main customer base and suddenly trying to appeal to people fed on decades of anti-green propaganda wouldn’t be a sustainable business model.
@DK:
I don’t believe they should be in the business of throwing away their ability to try to stop the fake economic emergency, or the tariffs, or the fake emergency at the border. That’s what the single legislative day lasting a year was about, and people knew it at the time.
If it was a clean CR, I might agree with you, but it wasn’t.
@Matt Bernius:
You know what is a choice that someone can be converted to? Christianity. And every other religion.
Perhaps we need to create the Holy Church of the Blessed Cocksucker (might need to workshop that name to be more inclusive of the womenfolk and trans folk)
Anyone who believes being gay is a choice is not straight.
@Gustopher:
Isn’t this Christianity’s business model?
Make up a saying, perhaps “bugger me with a badger”. Then go to google and search for “bugger me with a badger meaning”.
The AI will explain it.
LLMs are great.
There’s a thread of people enjoying this on BlueSky.
https://bsky.app/profile/gregjenner.bsky.social/post/3lnhxkdywzc2m
@Gustopher:
And that’s exactly what they did not do, by leaving Trump to take sole economic blame, thus increasing Democrats’ ability to win state and federal elections this year and the next.
Of course, self-martydom and fake purity politics has often been more important to certain self-described progressives than winning elections. Hence why these kinds of progressives rarely if ever win any outside of friendly deep blue districts.
Folks have every right to argue setting up Dems to prevail in these downballot elections isn’t a pressing consideration rn, or that a shutdown would’ve helped or not hurt our chances of winning these, or that same Trump and Republican legislators who defy a MAGA SCOTUS would’ve caved to Democratic shutdown demands (lmfao), or that the country would’ve benefitted from added shutdown chaos and disruption (of the courts now opposing Trump?), or that preservation of arcane legislative rules that might or might not be invoked later is more important, etc.
But then they should affix their own disclaimers about assumptions and speculations, instead of just suggesting others do so.
Technical OTB matter: The main page has not updated since early in the day, and still says this thread has only 8 comments.
@Kylopod:
I just noticed the miniature OTB logo on the chrome tab is B&W and tilted to one side on the main page, but in color and not tilted in blog post pages.
For all I know, it’s been always this way. I’m not usually very observant of such things.
@Gustopher:
Yup. Though I think it’s worth noting that in the case of religions that overlap with ethnic groups, there is a potential genetic component. See, for example, Judaism being passed through the mother. Christianity’s baptism and confirmation processes are–to some degree–a rejection of the genetic transfer of Religion (in part, historically created by Christianity being an offshoot of Judaism).
@steve:
Wait, what? What was that referring to? Because if it’s the drag queen, then that’s an expansion of the concept of sex worker that I do not understand.
@Kurtz:
To be clear, understanding does not equal either accepting or endorsing. I’ll go back to abortion–I can understand–though not accept–the idea that life starts at conception. And if someone holds that intentionally ending a life is fundamentally wrong, I can understand objecting to abortion on those grounds. Strict Catholics win on this one for consistency in that they object to both abortion and the death penalty. US Protestants and Evangelicals tend to be much more squishy on those issues.
I’m not taking either of those positions. And to your point, we have well-established proof that homosexuality has been part of the human condition for as long as there are historical records. And also that societal acceptance for it has waxed and waned. So pretending this is something “new” is ahistorical and not “conservative” in any historical sense.
To be clear, I also don’t personally endorse anti-Abortion or anti-LGBTQ+ positions in general. AND I also think that acknowledging understanding someone’s position is different than endorsing it. I also believe that it’s a necessary step to trying to work towards better policy.
@Beth:
I agree—though I sadly don’t think amendments will fix this—largely because I don’t expect the Constitution to be amended during my lifetime. That’s more due to design flaws in the document that prevent revision in the modern context than the fact that the document has it right from the outset.
@Kylopod:
Did you try clearing your cache?
BTW, when you see stuff like that, ping me at mb******@***il.com. I’ll add it to the “to-do” list.
@Kylopod:
And replicates all of my comments.
Twice, only, thank Odin!
@Kathy:
“Piss on their heads and tell them it’s raining!” -Trump’s favorite tactic. Works splendidly on the MAGAs but seems to be running into trouble with the Supreme Court justices. Even Alito’s dissent only complains about the procedure and explicitly affirms the ruling itself.
I suspect the SC is the last bastion. If they had gone full Trump it would’ve been, to borrow from “Aliens”, “Game over man!”
@Gustopher:
Some of those might be real but obscure, and others might have featured in fiction.
Mostly, though, the LLMs can trip without taking acid. That ought to save pennies on the millions wasted on electricity to power them…
I still find them useful for some things. they tend to do math quite well. It took me a while to check, but most of Copilot’s answers on this seem right, or at least close. Like what average speed must a ship have to reach Alpha Centauri in 200 years? It answered 0.02185 c.
Calculating speed from time elapsed for a given distance is easy. Dividing kilometers per second by 2 centuries gets tedious.
And maybe if I’d had such a thing in the 80s, I’d have aced Physics in high school.
@Fortune: “Orwell would appreciate your drag queen word search…for civility”
Oooh, intellectual Fortune knows who Orwell is! No doubt he’s gone the extra mile and read both 1984 AND Animal Farm — because like just about every other American rightie, his entire life’s reading lists consists of books that were assigned to him in high school.
Hey, Fortune, why don’t you move your reading standards up a little and try something adult? Read Down and Out in Paris and London and realize that Orwell would have spit on you if he’d ever bothered to notice your existence.
@Matt Bernius:
Conservatives have been claiming that drag queens are sex workers for a while now.
Also, for what it’s worth, I’m convinced that Gorsuch is a chaser.
The. I don’t know how we are going to come close to fixing the present situation then. There’s not a lot of options that don’t involve bloodshed. Which, honestly, wouldn’t surprise me. The Republicans are destroying the government. At some point, it’s not going to be fixable. Well, not at least by saying woopies, let’s take that back.
I’m fairly confident that SCOTUS is going to use Dobbs and the Skermetti case to rule Trans people illegal. The GOP is going to demand that Loving, Lawrence and Obergafell be overruled.
Once that’s done, they are going to work feverishly to roll back women’s rights. Once the migrants don’t show up (or show up and get rounded up) to harvest shit or cut up chickens, they are going to look to prisons. What do we think is going to happen when a whole mess of Black people watch other Black people in chains picking broccoli? I suspect that’s not going to go well.
That’s assuming these idiots don’t do something stupid accidentally. Personally, my money is on them blowing shit up with that massive stupid tax cut. Someone is going to have to finance that, and it’s not going to be foreign bond buyers. Imagine the shit storm that would happen if Trump goes on TV and demands the Fed buy up all those fucking treasuries and Powell says no.
It seems to me that the whole place is ready to blow up and everyone’s just standing in the blast zone going “how did we get here?”
@dazedandconfused:
I think one of the things we need to do is disabuse ourselves of the notion that there is any substantive differences between the 6 conservatives. They all agree on the substance, they just disagree on tactics and volume. All 6 of them are fanatics. Roberts is a fanatic. The only difference between Roberts and Alito is that Alito is too loud and wants people to love him for his brilliance. Roberts is quiet and doesn’t give a shit if anyone likes him.
Polls Show Trump’s Approval Rating on Immigration Going South (New York Magazine)
Doesn’t basic game theory hold that one should attack an opponent’s strengths?
@Mimai: Enjoy your respite trip to NOT-LaLa land. It’s nice to get away from Bizarro World.
@Kathy: None of us saw that coming.
@Fortune: If you’re not interested in a dialogue, then why respond in the first place?
(And good job playing the victim with the “I was trying to be nice” opening. Didn’t gain any sympathy, but it was a good try.)
@Beth:
I’m afraid it will take a smoking whole where the economy used to be, in order to get significant changes.
What those changes will be, is anyone’s guess. and they may not take. A lot of what got changed after the civil war, in particular voting and civil rights, was destroyed in a relatively short span, replaced by Jim Crow and segregation.
@Matt Bernius:
Those are facile analogies, if not misleading. Those are complex choices, the personal answers of which are shaped Sexuality, gender
If the default position on government is non-intervention, except in cases of harm to others, then there must be some link to an extraordinary reason for intervening on expression of one’s identity. That identity is not some contagion.
Conflating conservatism – reluctance to intervene on the government to correct the socio-economic impacts of bigotry unless the harm meets certain criteria – with the right wing position, active denial of the very existence of those identities is no different from climate denial.
I have specific reasons for why I think economic rights are intrinsically different from personal rights. But that is a whole other conversation.
@ptfe: We stayed in a hotel hosting the local “Miss Leather” pageant contestants when my daughter was four. She was a little confused by the deep voices on the ladies and asked if they were men. Yes, we said – those are men dressed like women – they are comfortable like that and enjoy dressing up. No big deal, nothing sexual in the conversation. Why is this so hard for some people?
@Kurtz:
40 or so years ago, I read a book called Less Than Conquerors. The author’s claim was the historically, Christian sects have focused away from the Gospels and toward end-time prophecy as they moved from cultural hegemony to minority-status in their communities. That book and Elul’s argument that cultural-supremacy is not consistent with Jesus’ message in The Subversion of Christianity were formative for my worldview and understanding of how I should “live” as a believer.
In “gender affirming care is fine, but only for cis people” news:
Hegseth orders makeup studio installed at Pentagon
@Stormy Dragon:
No. This is entirely appropriate.
For Heggie, having a makeup studio is a must.
The action on this forum stopped early today, didn’t it?
Looking for Thursday Forum.
Looking for comments.
@CSK:..The action on this forum stopped early today, didn’t it?
That’s what I thought. Comments stopped at 42 yesterday (Wednesday, April 24, 2025). No matter how often I checked the thread. Never did try to make a comment.
This morning there were still 42 comments. I posted the comment “Looking for Thursday Forum”
on my phone and when that posted there were 100 comments.
Then I accessed the OTB site on my MacBook Air. Could only see 42 comments. Posted “Looking for Comments” and now I see 100+ comments.
Apparently the squirrels are very busy now that spring has sprung!
@Mister Bluster:
Same here, with Chrome.
Comment check
@CSK:..Chrome…
I also run Chrome on my MacBook Air. I assume that my iPhone runs Safari.
Just checked OTB on Safari on the same MacBook Air.
The cover page said 104 Comments. When I opened the Wednesday’s Forum page it said 42 Comments. Then I posted “Comment check” and and when that appeared the comment counter on the Wednesday’s Forum thread tallied 104.
Whatever can we do about all these squirrels?
In any event I see that Thursday’s Form is up.
Can’t wait to see how today’s Comment Circus plays out!
ETA: This comment posted as soon as I hit the Post Comment key.
No 60 second delay!
@ptfe: Testing comments. Front page says 105, this page says 42 and ends at my previous, but surely the lively discussion happening when I posted that continued apace?