Wednesday’s Forum
Steven L. Taylor
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Wednesday, February 19, 2025
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71 comments
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About Steven L. Taylor
Steven L. Taylor is a Professor Emeritus of Political Science and former College of Arts and Sciences Dean. His main areas of expertise include parties, elections, and the institutional design of democracies. His most recent book is the co-authored
A Different Democracy: American Government in a 31-Country Perspective. He earned his Ph.D. from the University of Texas and his BA from the University of California, Irvine. He has been blogging since 2003 (originally at the now defunct Poliblog).
Follow Steven on
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BlueSky.
The AP on why Elmo and President Doughboy are full of skit on SS.
https://apnews.com/article/social-security-payments-deceased-false-claims-doge-ed2885f5769f368853ac3615b4852cf7
And re-posting from yesterday…
https://www.wired.com/story/elon-musk-doge-social-security-150-year-old-benefits/
I started receiving SS benefits in January of last year and still I hope they fuck up the system. Missed checks, late checks, wrong amounts, whatever. It’s the only way the cult will begin to grasp the incompetence.
It is difficult for me to express how irritated this makes me. What, exactly, did these idiots think was going to happen when they willingly handed over powers that the Constitution expressly states is THEIRS?
Apparently President Doughboy fired USDA workers focused on the Bird Flu, and is scrambling to re-hire them…just like the Nuclear Workers from last week.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna192716
Watch the embedded video here and see Elon Musk’s comment on it to see what a sadistic sicko Musk really is.
https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1891923570768384107
Which supports my view that the main motivation for the government worker firings is the joy of hurting people and destroying the government. Saving money is mostly pretext.
You can read the comments to see what a septic tank Twitter has become.
@charontwo:
I was just taking a look at NMMNB, it looks like Steve M. agrees with me about Musk, Trump and a whole lot of MAGA’s:
“NMMNB”
@charontwo:
And yet, Musk is pushing all official government notifications to Twitter, and is now looking for “investors.”
For those in the back of the room who haven’t been paying attention, Musk:
1) Purchased Twitter
2) Removed the guardrails, turning it into a cesspool, which caused advertisers to flee
3) Lost 80% of its value (Musk decides to sue advertisers for leaving)
4) [Election]
5) Pushes all notifications of government activity exclusively to X, driving up traffic
6) Tries to find investors
In short, Musk bought Twitter, immediately trashed it, and is now using his government-adjacent position to revive what he killed, while lining his pockets.
It may be too little too late, but it is heartening to see career federal prosecutors refusing to make the bad faith arguments they have been ordered to make by Emil Bove – Trump’s utterly conflicted hatchet man at DOJ. In a better world, judges would hold DOJ lapdogs who do lie and obfuscate in contempt of court. The legal profession has generally been good in policing itself. The disbarments and suspensions of the Kraken lawyers took some time, but they did happen. The entities that supervise attorneys – state supreme courts and various bar associations – should not overlook ethics violations by turds like Bove.
@charontwo:
For those of you who do not click X/Twitter links, the video is shackles and chains being installed on deportees ready to be herded onto an airplane.
Elon Musk comment: “Haha wow”
@Jen:
The advertisers are coming back, now that Musk has so much power.
@charontwo:
It should be more amusing to watch all these self-proclaimed chads on Twitter simp over two boys whose ‘masculinity’ is so conspicuous that the overcompensation is transparent. But the problems are real.
Also, dude, “sick fuck” is not the preferred nomenclature, “suck fuck,” please.
It is based on a Joyner typo in a front page post.
I complemented the phrase in the comments, because it drew an audible laugh from me. Joyner replied “ha!” and explained it was a typo. IIRC, he said something like, the typo is more visceral.
The “ha” made me almost as happy, because I cannot imagine James laughing.
I tried to do a Google site search for the post. But Google is enshittified, so the results were crappy.
Anyway, since that post, I’ve always hoped it would catch on.
You all are a huge disappointment.
Carry on.
It occurred to me this morning that what Trusk is doing to the federal government is probably the most sweeping and comprehensive violation of Chesterton’s Fence in history. Anyone who still thinks these people are ‘conservatives’ is a moron.
Why no one trusts the “experts” in government anymore. They lie and lied. Strangely, this was what the clinical trials of the vaccine reported but she and Fauci led the war against anyone who tried to follow the science. The US doesn’t even require aspiration when administering the vaccine as Denmark and then the UK added to their protocols.
They fear a link to the vaccine damage in young people when the bad protocol didn’t aspirate to ensure it wasn’t injected into a blood vessel as the scandal would rival The Tuskegee Experiment, which was still going on when Fauci joined NAID.
@charontwo:
Remember when the conservative line in opposition to government protections for minorities was that the markets would punish firms that discriminate?
Then years later, when a firm would do something to show they don’t discriminate, those same conservatives boycotted. And we had videos of talentless singers shooting Bud Light cans.
Separate, but tangentially related:
My body initiates a gag reflex when I see “libertarian” in a social media bio.
My body initiates projectile vomit when I see “Libertarian. Engineer.” in a social media bio.
When I see an MD cheering on DOGE and using “number of lawsuits filed against the Trump administration” as a metric for Trump’s success; Or an MD-turned-Senator voting to confirm RFK, Jr. as HHS Sec. then days later tweeting concern about a measles outbreak in Texas, well…
It makes me want to burn this motherfucker down.
Come on, Pookie.
Here’s a comment taken from another site:
“Outside looking in, it is interesting to see the dipshits cheering the downfall of their country.”
It really sums up nicely how effective the propaganda has been.
@charontwo: Exactly the point I was making. It makes me so, so angry.
@JKB: What does that have to do with Trump and Musk though?
@JKB:
Did you watch the video in full? ‘vigilant’ fox didn’t. Or they are lying about that Birx said. Or they are hearing what they want to hear.
But it doesn’t matter, because most of the, to use their favorite insult, NPCs will not actually verify what was said. Or they will, wait for it, omit that Birx said the vaccine should be rolled out for “those over 65 first”.
And the “not designed against infection” claim in the tweet is likewise out of context.
How many lead paint chips did you eat as a kid?
@charontwo:
They must be nostalgic for the days when shackles were put on DEI hires.
@Fortune:
I knew a comment from you was coming, because JKB got an upvote.
The implication: this is why the bureaucracy must be dismantled.
But you knew that before you asked, right?
Of course, none of you acknowledge that a bureaucracy is characteristic of any large organization.
But you know that, right?
Or would you prefer I treat you like a know-nothing?
You don’t engage when treated with respect. You act like a victim, and blame us.
When exactly did you take the mirrors out of your house? I missed the RFK, Jr. op-ed about the link between self-reflection and docility. Can you send me the link?
http://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-wanted-millions-for-15-minute-meeting-with-execs/
@JKB:
This is a perfect example of what’s wrong right now.
You have low IQ people ranting, quite emotionally, about how we cannot trust the Govt because “…they lie and lied.”
But when you look at what they’re talking about it turns out that they are simply incapable of understanding what was said, much less the actual base material, and thus are wildly mis-stating it.
Or, to use their own parlance…THEY ARE LYING.
This is rampant on Social Media, and I believe it will ultimately be our downfall.
My favorite illustration of this is Podcaster Joe Rogan. He has no understanding of physics or mechanics or history or social organization, and so cannot begin to fathom how the Great Pyramids could be constructed, and therefore he concludes that ALIENS BUILT THE PYRAMIDS.
https://media1.tenor.com/m/eEEWVh8DscEAAAAd/loud-opinions.gif
If you are merely angry about the betrayal of Ukraine, and not in a white-hot, incandescent rage, go watch the documentary 20 Days In Mariupol. Remind yourself of how much the Ukrainians have suffered at the hands of the Russian invaders. Then flash forward to yesterday, when one of the worst examples in modern history of blaming the victims happened, as a pretext for the betrayal.
Just a reminder, trolls use the heated air generated from your outrage to inflate to become the expanded, empty gasbags they want to be. If you don’t help them inflate, they shrink down to the wretched, meaningless size they deserve to be.
@Kingdaddy: At this point, there can be no doubt that they just want attention.
@DrDaveT:
No, modern conservatives are not “conservative”. But conservatives never have been. Corey Robin did a whole book, The Reactionary Mind, on how conservatism has always been reactionary radicalism. You need a program to keep up with the changes in rock-ribbed conservative verities. In practice “Conservatism” has always come down to defense of the currently wealthy and powerful. These days the way to get enough votes from the proles in support of the elite is radical “populism”. Another word that doesn’t mean much.
As Dr. T reminds us, we got two and only two parties. One is, by default, liberal and the other conservative. And they call themselves conservative. Conservative is as conservative does. For any practical purpose, the heuristic Republican = conservative works fine.
@Kingdaddy: There is a short list of commenters here, a very short list, that I just skip over, having learned they have nothing useful to say. I also skip over any reply to them.
@Kingdaddy:
You are entirely correct.
The crux lies in how to keep people from feeding the trolls. It’s like getting people to stop buying from scalpers, or to boycott a business, or to stop voting against their self interest. No matter how many go along, enough won’t to make the problem persist for centuries past the heat death of the universe.
Mass confusion here at my gov’t agency. We have a few people who took the “Fork in the Road” option, mainly because of the forced RTW issue and not wanting to move 200 miles. Exactly how all this is supposed to work out, nobody knows. They’ve been put on”Administrative Leave”, several with same day notice. In-agency HR has no idea what is going on. How the departed are supposed to get their time-cards in—nobody knows. No one knows what the code for “Paid because on administrative leave” is. They’ve been asked to return their laptops immediately—so how they’re supposed to access our internal time card system—unknown. “Someone” is supposedly going to file their time cards for them. Who is that? Unknown. Who they can contact if anything goes wrong? Unknown.
The irony is—today I took the mandated yearly cybersecurity training. The entire time I couldn’t help thinking: how much of this has already been totally compromised due to Musk and his minions?
@JKB: Again, it’s as if you don’t really understand how science works. One scientist says, “we should have done X different” and you assume every other scientist was lying.
WTF?
Scientists are wrong about stuff all the time. Sometimes it is because of an agenda, but most of the time its because they are simply wrong. There are disagreements all over the place. That’s why, in the scientific method, what’s important is data, not opinion. Einstein himself can be called wrong, if the data doesn’t back him up. (I will note that through the 1910’s and 20’s and even into the 30’s, quantum mechanics, to many German physicists, quantum mechanics was po0-pooed as “that Jewish thing”.)
But the data did back up Einstein, eventually.
Some scientist said X does not mean A) she’s right or B) everyone else was lying.
@Daryl:
Only stupid people decline to trust the experts.
“We won with poorly educated, I love the poorly educated.” – Donald Trump
Say what you will, but he knows his base.
On a not unrelated note, aside from the ongoing bird flu, there’s a tuberculosis outbreak in Kansas and a measles outbreak in West Texas rn, due to low vaccination rates in the affected areas. Stupidity has consequences. And it’s stupid to ignore expertise but trust unqualified pathological lying rapist reality TV buffoon Trump, drug addicted weirdo Musk, or brain-wormed heroin addict RFK Jr.
Note: Trump has gutted our health agencies and silenced health experts, crippling our ability to contain these disease outbreaks.
@Grumpy realist:
President Musk’s unqualified, unvetted DOGE bros have found no fraud and cut no debt. But they’ve destroyed jobs, aviation safety, and nuclear safety — while starving kids, ruining farms, and exposing Americans’ private data.
And done nothing to fix rising egg prices, egg shortages, or general inflation.
I don’t believe Republicans will benefit long term from letting the world’s richest man (and biggest welfare queen) recklessly fire veterans and middle class veterans and workers. Not when ketamine kingpin Musk himself has raked in $20 billion in taxpayer money.
@Daryl:
Because the Trump administration is reckless, chaotic and full of unqualified, incompetent clowns. Like Trump and Musk. Errors like these are piling up, party to the failed attempt to let a drug-addicted illegal immigrant oligarch cut spending by indiscriminately firing American citizens.
Republicans in congress are too weak and scared to stop the craziness.
@Jay L Gischer:
Being wrong is exactly what makes science “anti-fragile”. Being wrong is moving in the right direction, as long as other conditions are met.
We have now found another problem there is this recent piece from The Atlantic about the failure of the peer review process–one can likely find a ‘peer-reviewed’ article to justify whatever view.
I have thoughts. But I will save them for another time. Here is the lede:
@gVOR10:
Hey, what was the title of the book you mentioned a couple times recently. The GOP mostly dominated by intuitionists?
I could go back through recent threads, but you’re here. Thank you.
@DrDaveT:
Nice move. But you’re trying to play chess with people who only know checkers.
@Jay L Gischer:
Einstein was very wrong about many aspects of quantum mechanics. He spent his last decades vainly looking for a unified theory. And for all that, he made several contributions to the field. Even if he’s known best for Special and General relativity, revolutionary breakthroughs, he got the Nobel prize for a development in quantum theory.
But Bell’s Inequality suggests very strongly the universe is not local. Einstein refused to accept “spooky action at a distance.” This must mean Einstein lied, Relativity is not real, and he should return his Nobel Prize.
@Kurtz:
Nah, I wasn’t talking to them. They’re either too stupid to get it or too evil to care. Either way, there’s no point. It was just an observation that I thought the regulars here might appreciate.
February is Black History Month
Post submitted Wed. Feb. 19, 2025. 11:51pm cst
@Kurtz:
This is the guy who created the hydroquinone myth with bullshit “research.”
@Kurtz: Enchanted America. I expect you’ll find it informative. I’m in the final chapter where hopefully they’ll offer good advice. But so many books have a handle on the problem, but little useful advice.
They note rationalism dominates the discourse. Which is true. If I say people believe cutting taxes is good and lowering the deficit is good so cutting taxes lowers the deficit, people will object that’s ridiculous. It is ridiculous. But it’s true.
There’s been another small plane crash (two aircraft) in Marana, AZ. One person dead.
ETA: Two dead.
@CSK: Unless there’s a control center guiding the airplanes around this most likely is a GA accident.
@Grumpy realist:
Yes, it appears to be two small planes.
@CSK: I saw some pictures of the place. I think we’ll find out that it’s human error and a General Aviation airport.
@Kurtz:
This has been a “thing” in educational research since before I started graduates school, in 1990. I eventually came to conclude that in teaching, everything works, but nothing works all the time, with every student, in every setting, with every teacher in charge, and/or equally well in differing situations. I suspect (but don’t know) that other fields have similarly soft boundaries for discovery and how to handle it.
@Jen:
Clearly these “holes” in our system were there to exploit all along. But the Republican Party became a collection point, a refuge for malignant personalities and their morally banrupt policies. They have no restraint against exploiting the margins of legality or respecting tradition. Our system has depended upon a certain degree of integrity that has now been completely cast aside by one party. We simply are not equipped to address this unfolding catastrophe.
I think someone either misstated something here or is channeling Arthur Laffer’s disciples unintentionally.
Or that I’ve become illiterate and innumerate. Either one is possible, though.
Sad news about a very good boi:
It’s amazing what dogs do for us.
@Kurtz: I find I was right to worry @gVOR10: . The last chapter of Enchanted America offers only very general advice, but what little they have is very good advice
It also offers a very good summary history of American politics since the 50s in terms of intuitionism and rationalism.
@Jen:
The most decorated dog in American history. RIP, sweet boy.
@just nutha: Apparently I wasn’t clear. I said people believe X, and people would say what I said was ridiculous, even though what I said was true. True that people believe X, not that X is true. It’s easy to misunderstand and dismiss my statement, illustrating why the dialogue doesn’t talk in terms of intuition or about intuitionism.
It’s hard to write rationally about irrational thought. The authors of the book have the problem themselves. They cited a study asking subjects if people who burn a flag in protest should lose their citizenship. Far more intuitionists said yes than rationalists. They attribute this to intuitionists having less tolerance for dissent. That’s true, but they don’t note that intuitionists are much more influenced by symbolism. To them the flag is the country and the protesters are burning the country. That intuitionists are less tolerant of protest is a simple, rational statement, unlikely to get pushback. That to them the flag doesn’t just represent the country, but in some sense IS the country is equally true, but likely to get a lot of pushback. Hard to write about.
@CSK:
Tragic but general aviation accidents are very common and only notable if somebody famous was on board.
Kentucky Fried Chicken is moving its Headquarters to Texas. Will it rename itself TFC? Is Colonel Sanders rolling over in his grave?
I don’t have the answers but I do love their cole slaw.
Given Boeing’s well known dedication to quality, Kathy should love this:
@gVOR10:
Maybe Boeing’s having difficulties sourcing gold toilets.
@gVOR10:
Have you read Ideology in America? I ran across it while I was adding Enchanted America to a list.
I have not read it. I have a vague recollection of the title, but I do not know whether I happened to see it prior to today or if it was mentioned here. If the latter, it’s usually a good bet that it was a front pager or you.
—
I am not sure that I agree with the implication of this phrasing:
I’m curious about your reasoning for this characterization.
@Bill Jempty:
When I worked at KFC as a teen I like making the coleslaw. It was fun to feed a pile of veggies into the wood chipper they had. Then everything went into a tub and you got to dump in bags of stuff that had the color and consistency of semen into the tub. Best part was that the cooks hated doing it so you got left alone for like 30 minutes or so.
But my favorite KFC coleslaw experience was this. Tangentially relevant to this story was that the KFC I worked at was Black owned and in a lilly White suburb. I was one of three White people who worked there, all teenagers, and for the sake of simplicity, lets just say all “boys”. One day Whiteboy Whose Name I Don’t Remember “WWNIDR” was on cole slaw duty. He was like a year younger and was always trying to impress me and Tim. The cooks didn’t care for him because was always starting shit. Tim and I mostly didn’t start shit and what we did could be boiled down to “Look at what those crazy ass White Boys are doing now”. Did we spray window cleaner into each other’s mouths like the Blues Brothers and shrimp? Hell yeah. Did we confuse the slightly older Black men that we worked with, oh yeah. Did we really confuse the much older Black man who drove a Cadillac who was the night manager, YOU BETCHA. Did we confuse the middle aged Black woman that owned that KFC? FUCK.NO. We stayed away from her cause she was the boss and we were stupid, not idiots.
On this particular day, WWNIDR seemed a little giggly when he stocked the front case with cole slaw. I was too busy to notice much. I didn’t notice that the tub of coleslaw felt off when I put it on this guy’s tray. I did, however, get to see as he went to dump the tub on his plate and for a whole tub of coleslaw juice vomit on to his plate and all over him. I saw it and rapidly excused myself to hide in the back as coleslaw guy started screaming. The cooks ended up dragging WWNIDR up to the front to get yelled at by the Night Manager and Coleslaw guy. Surprised he didn’t get his ass beat.
Turns out if you didn’t mix the tub every so often while filling the tubs, all the slaw juice would fall to the bottom and you’d end up with a bunch of dry coleslaw and more than enough slaw juice to fill a couple tubs. Turns out he filled up a tub with only slaw juice then sprinkled enough veg on top to make it look normal enough. If we had been slow we’d have noticed the weight was off. We didn’t so Coleslaw guy got to wear it.
@gVOR10:
No one really trusts Boeing any more. The Air Force awarded the contract to convert 747s fo use as “Doomsday” plane to Sierra Nevada Corp.
The nazi in chief might speed things along, certainly. Only he’ll need to blow up a dozen or so 747s before he’s done testing.
@Beth:
The Coleslaw Incident. Just … Epic.
Any person who worked these kind of jobs as a young person completely understands this.
@Beth: Good lord.
@Beth:
I am confused about the relative sizes of tubs and plates.
@Beth: mega-applause for your storytelling.
@Gustopher:
Lets ask Google. Hey dipshit, how big is a large KFC coleslaw. Diiiiiiiiiiiiiiipshit says:
Thanks Dipshit, I mean google.
A little bit of actual work on my part tells me that a large KFC coleslaw is 450 grams or about 15 ounces. I think an average paper plate is like 9 inches. I think he was in a booth, but I’m not certain. I’m guessing he dumped about 14.7 ounces of slaw juice on that plate, and himself, and the floor.
@DK:
James! That was his name. He was always pretty nice to me. He was one of those older classy Black guys. Came to work put together. One of those guys where you’re like, you’re lying about being an actual pimp, but not too much, and you might know people. He was always kinda frazzled having to deal with the cooks on one hand and idiot White teenagers on the other. Haven’t really thought about him in years and dragging those memories out makes me think he felt bad for me.
@charontwo:
Alternatively, perhaps he realizes that at current trajectory of spending, an in light of roughly 27% of US debt rolling over at prevailing rates – far above those at original issue – the country is in financial extremis with respect to debt service. That would be a more adult explanation than yours.
Former NFL Punter arrested for protest.
If memory serves, @Kingdaddy has written about Republicans in Huntington Beach. Same as they ever were.
Nice contrast to current K Butker.
Kluwe is awesome.
@Connor:
You sound like a preacher that predicted the exact date of the Second Coming, but then announces a new date, then a new date, then a new date.
You never answer that point.
Nor do you answer the more important argument:
The sorts of cuts occurring now will do pretty much nothing to fix that.
Or that the GOP budget proposals will do nothing to fix debt service. Indeed, they are likely to make them worse. Which is a consistent pattern of behavior by your preferred party.
Im still waiting for an answer to my reply to your 20% rate before the tax schemes start:
It’s one thing to argue for a lower tax rate but another to argue that we cannot apply the law to rich people because they have the means to cheat.
Get in the game, dude.
I began season 4 of The Boys, and found it infuriatingly close to present times. It now feels like a cautionary tale about what’s already happened. So, I’ll probably opt for something else, like the latest season of Harley Quinn.
Not that I have that much time for entertainment these days. Hell Week got back with a vengeance, and it may be about to get even worse. We’re approaching the time some managers will get annoyed at me because their big project doesn’t get published, as if I could control any of that.
On other things, I’m thinking of an instant pot beef and mushrooms thing. I want to get a very thick sauce, and maybe serve over pasta. Or maybe with oven roasted potatoes.
@Kathy:
It’s cute so far. My partner and I really like that show. Lol, my partner bought us Ivy and Harley Funko Pops. She put the Harley one in her office and I took the Ivy one. Only real difference is my partner doesn’t like plants.
I just like how the show argues that you can save the world through the powers of crazy and love.
@Beth: I was thinking a giant 5 gallon bucket as the “tub” — something from which the order-sized containers would be filled.
And then struggling to understand why someone would order the 5 gallon holding bucket — although that would clearly earn him the moniker “coleslaw man,” rather than “the customer” — let alone dump it onto a plate.
Now the story makes sense. It’s funny, but now I feel a sense of loss no longer having the Coleslaw Man ordering 5 gallon buckets of coleslaw.
(There was an incident at one of my past jobs’ cafeteria of a man gathering all the plates of flan, and dumping them into a tub so he could bring flan home to his family. People were not done eating, he just took 50 desserts before others could get to them. We called him the Flan Man)
Aha! Multiple sizes of tubs in your story! I’m not completely crazy!
@Kurtz: For my ignint cracker view of the issue, I’ll admit that I share Connor’s concern for the problem. And I wish that another round of tax cuts for top earners was the answer. Sadly, 40 years of watching this solution play out has convinced me that it’s not gonna work this time either.
Wholesale gutting of the government doesn’t strike me as promising either, though. I guess we’ll find out. 🙁
Clif notes version:
$4T. tax cutting says that putative deficit concerns are disconnected from any sort of intelligent thinking.