An Example of Motivated Reasoning
Why we are where we are.
Via NBC News: A tense new Jan. 6 video shows Republican congressmen admonishing rioters trying to enter House chamber.
Dramatic, newly released video shot by a Jan. 6 rioter shows the confrontation between two Republican members of Congress and Capitol rioters trying to breach the main door into the chamber of the U.S. House of Representatives. The videos show rioters staring down the barrels of guns through broken glass as they tried to force their way inside.
The eight-minute video, shot by Capitol rioter Damon Beckley and introduced as evidence ahead of his sentencing, was released to the media coalition late Friday in response to a request from NBC News. Federal prosecutors are seeking more than three years in federal prison for Beckley, and his sentencing has now been rescheduled for Feb. 9.
Rep. Troy Nehls, R-Texas, and then-Rep. Markwayne Mullin, R-Okla., can be seen speaking with rioters through the broken glass.
“You ought to be ashamed of yourself!” Nehls says.
“We’re coming in one way or another!” one rioter says.
“I’ve been in law enforcement in Texas for 30 years, and I’ve never had people act this way,” Nehls says. “I’m ashamed!”
But now?
Nehls has changed his tone in the three years since Jan. 6, even calling the death of Ashli Babbitt — the rioter who was shot by a Capitol Police officer as she jumped through a door near the House floor — “murder.”
Way to back the blue.
I would note that both Nehls and Markwayne voted against certifying the 2020 election.
On the one hand, it boggles the mind that anyone who was in that building on that day could have voted against the election results after the attack. On the other, it is also rather obviously people putting their own power positions above the good of the country.
More via Texas Monthly, Troy Nehls Defended the House Floor From Rioters. Then He Got to Work Defending Trump.
In the immediate aftermath of January 6, Trump distanced himself from the rioters, and Nehls called their behavior criminal and un-American. But he told me Monday that “a majority of the people in the Capitol that day had no intention to turn into criminals or insurrectionists.”
[…]
When we talked Monday, Nehls refused to blame Trump for what happened on January 6. He told me to listen to Trump’s speech that day and cited the president’s call “to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard.” Nehls is intrigued by a theory propounded by Revolver News, a right-wing website run by Darren Beattie, a former Trump speechwriter, that federal informants and undercover agents incited violence at the Capitol on January 6 to discredit Trump. It’s a theory that PolitiFact dismissed as “rife with holes, inaccuracies and circumstantial speculation,” and a New York Timesfact-check described as “without evidence.” But it has been picked up and spread widely by Infowars’ Alex Jones and Fox’s Tucker Carlson. Does Nehls actually believe the riot might have been an “inside job”? “I do believe that we need to continue to examine the evidence,” he said. “I’m telling you something is fishy.”
Sigh.
BTW, if we need even more confirmation of what a lot of participants thought they were doing that day, note the following.
In the video, one rioter tells the officers and representatives on the other side of the door “there’s going to be a bigger Civil War and a lot of bloodshed” if they didn’t overturn the election.
“I drove 14 hours to get here and stood in the cold for three and a half hours to find out that Mike Pence is a f—— traitor, man. And I voted for that f—— dude,” Beckley says in the video. “He could’ve done the right thing and certified those legislators, electors, and we wouldn’t be standing here with a 9 mm pointed at me right now!”
And as we continue to discuss Trump’s role in all of this, let’s not forget that in the middle of the Capitol being assaulted, he tweeted the following:
In a 2:24 p.m. tweet, Trump wrote: “Mike Pence didn’t have the courage to do what should have been done to protect our Country and our Constitution.”
And when informed this tweet had put Mike Pence in serious danger, Trump replied “so what?”
Nehls was fired by his first law enforcement employer for destroying evidence. I guess that was a bonus when he ran for Sheriff.
@Mikey:
And even now, Pence believes the 14th amendment remedy is unconstitutional and he refuses to say Trump is unfit to return to the Presidency.
@Scott F.:
It’s not Trump and his minions and followers who are destroying American democracy, it’s all the centrist dipshits, including Pence, McConnell, Roberts, numerous pundits, etc., who won’t stand up and do anything that are destroying democracy. And I’m mostly blaming Merrick Garland, who didn’t move until the House Committee pretty much forced his hand.
@Scott F.: Speaking of motivated reasoning…
@gVOR10:
I am going to especially call out McConnell, who could have tried to get Trump barred from future office (which I believe he knew to be the right thing to do), but who took the coward’s way.
Every time I see that photo of that grinning jackass with the stolen podium, I want to punch him.
Sound observations.
As to downplaying Jan. 6, the press is still calling Trump’s terrorists “rioters.”
If a bunch of Muslims stormed the Capitol screaming to assassinate the vice-president, what would they be called and have been called from day one? What would have happened to them?
So. We could start there. Everything since is a natural result.
@DK:
Why does Ray Epps get a deal in the DOJ sentencing document for the J6 “riot” not insurrection?
Don’t worry I am sure Jack Smith will charge Trump with 18 U.S. Code § 2383 – Rebellion or insurrection soon.
Remember J6 occurred during the Covid pandemic when the US Constitution was suspended under Jacobson v. Mass.
The idea that Trump’s own DoJ would go to these lengths to “discredit” a man who had already lost the election – possibly putting the confirmation of Biden’s election at risk – is grotesquely implausible. That so many Republicans either believe it or agree it might have happened illustrates yet again the impossibility of engaging in any kind of evidence-based conversation with them.
@Ken_L:
Bush’s own DoJ went to great lengths to railroad Ted Stevens causing him to lose his reelection– is grotesquely implausible.
@Paul L.:
For the same reasons other J6 terrorists got deals for storming the Capitol, erecting a gallows, beating cops, disrupting the peaceful transfer of power, and screaming “Hang Mike Pence!” during the insurrection incited by Dementia Donald — a morbidly obese, racist traitor and sore loser who got illegal payments from China and Saudi Arabia during his failed presidency, and who has repeatedly made gross comments about wanting sex with his own daughter. Yuck.
No, I don’t remember this. Who “suspended” the Constitution, and during which dates?
(This should be good.)
@DK:
It was a self-executing suspension that allowed Trump to rule by decree. The authority is in the appendix to the constitution that is only visible to Genuine Patriots.
@Paul L.:
Uh, cite, please?
I mean, it’s been half a century since my day, but you probably ought to reference where this bombshell appeared in print. Or was this a delusional fever dream?
@DK: Muslim or not, I think we can all agree that if that group consisted of people with brownish or darker skin, they’d still be cleaning the blood off the walls of the building.
@Flat Earth Luddite:
Paul’s right in that the Ted Stevens Investigation is a particularly egregious case of Federal law enforcement conspiring to withhold potentially exculpatory evidence from the defense. The investigation and trial happened during the final two years of the GWB administration. Interestingly one of Eric Holder’s early acts as Obama’s Attorney General was to issue an order to the courts to set aside the case (which the Judge signed off on).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_of_Ted_Stevens
@Paul L.:
Because, for better or worse, that’s the way plea deals work in the US. And multiple reports including government filings show that Epps cooperated with the government from more or less the start:
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justice-department/prosecutors-seek-six-month-sentence-ray-epps-jan-6-case-rcna132002
Paul I’m curious, why the focus on Ray Epps? You’ve made this comment about him twice.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_of_Ted_Stevens
@Ken_L:
@DK:
Prove who put that small and rickety gallows up.
@Matt Bernius:
The QAnon shaman had a plea deal too and they threw the book at him.
Every other J6 case refers to it as a insurrection that almost destroyed US democracy.
But in the Epps case, the Feds want special treatment for their lackey so now it was a riot.
@Paul L.:
Fact patterns matter Paul. That individual didn’t initially cooperate or take a plea. The plea deal came relatively late into that investigation. Likewise he had a different set of facts on the day of and different evidence against him. He still was able to get things knocked down from the inital charges.
https://www.npr.org/2021/09/03/1034076581/an-arizona-man-who-wore-horns-in-the-jan-6-capitol-riot-pleads-guilty-to-felony
Ok, I figured you were in the Ray Epps conspiracy corner. Let’s circle back to that one in about a year and see how his defamation cases go when people have to back up those claims.
BTW, I’m pretty sure you were deep into the idea that the government was protecting Ruby Freeman and Wandrea “Shaye” Moss… how did the evidence come out in that case?
It seems to me that your concerns about government overreach, lies, and conspiracies only seem to apply to the people you have decided are guilty/deserve it. I’m also sure you’re still waiting for all that evidence to come out against Dominion Voting Systems proving the Former President was right all along. I mean, I’m sure that Fox News settling that lawsuit was just a deep state operation to signal that they really have the evidence but are sitting on it.
@Paul L.:
Tell us you fundamentally don’t understand the difference between State and Federal Civil court and their relative jurisdictions without telling us you fundamentally the difference between State and Federal Civil court and their relative jurisdictions.
Seriously Paul, never get into any legal trouble. No lawyer, no matter what they have done, has done enough ever to deserve having you as a client. The same goes for whatever poor Judge who has to deal with your pro se representation.
1 year? How optimistic.
12 years later Michael E. Mann Defamation lawsuit against Mark Steyn finally goes to trial.
What Government overreach do it defend? I defended Bush NSA warrantless surveillance (2001–2007) during the Iraq War. Now I would like to see the repeal of the Patriot Act and dismantlement of the FISA court and replacing it with something transparent and accountable.
@Matt Bernius:
US Constitution applies to States.
Isn’t the DOJ suing Texas over putting up razor wire?
Marc J. Randazza
BTW, I was not allowed to attend a relative’s court hearing during Covid and I am still bitter about it.
Gag Order in 3,2,1.
I got a lawyer for a traffic fine and MY lawyer and judge had a conference without me to dismiss the case when the cop didn’t show up. The game is rigged. Most defense attorneys will make a deal to help hide misconduct to keep their relationships intact.
Ok, last one and then I’m off this gallop…
@Paul L.:
Correct. But State interpretations of the Consitution doesn’t apply to the country. Which is why saying, “Remember J6 occurred during the Covid pandemic when the US Constitution was suspended under Jacobson v. Mass” and then defending the decision with a State Court case is absolute lunacy. Especially if you are trying to demonstrate how much you understand the legal system in the country.
I mean you are demonstrating how much or little you understand the system with those types of comments. I realize you traffic in hyperbole, but this approach makes any type of productive conversation about these issues impossible.
What can I say Paul–the entire system is designed and rigged against you. Specifically you. If you only had some idea of the huge check I get to cash from the government for specifically pointing out that you might have a persecution complex and not understand how the legal system works.
Seriously, you might want to consider medication. It has to be pretty miserable going through life as you currently are. There really are options for feeling better.
Have a Federal case that the US Constitution was suspended under Jacobson v. Mass.
Federal Judge Gina M. Groh it was “obstructing” an officer to not lockdown after the Governor ordered it.
@Paul L.:
I quickly scanned the page, thank you for the link. I think you are seriously misrepresenting what happened in the courts and what those decisions are saying. I also think you are reaching a conclusion that the lawyer in the case didn’t reach (though I don’t know his writings enough to make that judgement).
First, the lawyer correctly notes that:
So the exact opposite of what you were saying was found (also you keep jumping from case to case in your usual Gish Gallop). It was clearly established that obstruction wasn’t a valid charge. It stinks that it took that long for the charges to be dismissed. That said, sadly April to January is sadly pretty speedy for the criminal courts (and yes, you are right that my “let’s check back in a year” is unrealistic).
Getting back to the case you cite, you seem to think that somehow the decision to dismiss the Federal civil charges brought by the Barber was somehow suggesting that the court was affirming the executive order.
The civil dismissal decisions were made on two very narrow findings from my scan of the decisions. Both appear to have been decided on a mix of lack of standing and qualified immunity (which you and I both agree is an abomination and must be undone).
Here’s the key quote from the deputy case in particular:
From a legal perspective, and the role that the District Judge can and cannot consider, this reads like the correct decision to me within the current legal structures the Judge had to work with. The barber and their lawyer were not asking the judge to rule on the executive order–simply on the enforcement aspect of it. Which falls into the bounds of Qualified Immunity as presently understood and the execution of what at the time was a “facially valid executive order.”
I’d like to congratulate @PaulL on a brilliant thread derail. We were talking about Troy Nehls, who in what he thought was private, told 1/6 insurrectionists that he was ashamed of them and that they ought to be ashamed of themselves, but in public has been doing quite another thing.
In some sense, that’s what PaulL is doing too. Changing the subject. Changing his tune from week to week or month to month. Never putting any stake in the ground, just coming up with strange side topics that seem like they maybe rebut … something. Also never owning up to being wrong about anything, either.
Really, Paul, I know you are bright, a stupid person couldn’t have pulled this off. But I am about to put you on personal ignore. None of the stuff you bring up matters, and it’s full of distortions and half-truths anyway.
@Jay L Gischer:
Go to this point.
“Come on guys they [The Capitol Police] are just doing their jobs.” – St. Raymond Epps.
I can peruse and refute any tangent I want to. And other commenters can go after my tangents such as the US Constitution was suspended under Jacobson v. Mass for the Covid pandemic because the courts refuse to address the abuses and I refuse to give them any benefit of the doubt.
@Paul L.:
I’m fine, I don’t need to prove anything. Trump’s violent January 6 traitors are locked up in prison, losing their jobs, losing friends and family, etc. Not me.
Meanwhile, Rethuglikkklans keep losing elections because of y’alls hatred of democracy, love of rightwing extremism, and support of insurrection.
So it’s you and Dementia Donald who need to prove that his terrorist sore losers didn’t put up that disgusting and assassinatory gallows and storm the Capitol screaming “Hang Mike Pence!” And I hope conservatives spend every day from now til November alienating voters with sad, desperate lies about what Americans watched happen live, uncut, and in real time on Jan 6, 2021. Please proceed lol
(Biden’s speech is already triggering exactly the unhinged MAGA stupidity Democrats need to win over swing voters. Well done, Mr. President.)
@Matt Bernius:
Thanks for the reminder. I’d largely forgotten this episode (blame it on a combo of age, chemo brain, and having inhaled in the 70s).
I keep forgetting that Paul likes to run in, toss irrelevant smack, and exit stage left. Bad luddite for expecting him to be rational.