Making Childhood Diseased Again

The anti-vax threat from the incoming administration.

“Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Health Freedom Rally Times Square Oct 18” by Pamela Drew is licensed under CC BY-NC 2.0

Via Reuters: Trump to discuss ending childhood vaccination programs with RFK Jr.

When asked if he would sign off if Kennedy decided to end childhood vaccinations programs, Trump told Time magazine, “we’re going to have a big discussion. The autism rate is at a level that nobody ever believed possible. If you look at things that are happening, there’s something causing it.”

When asked if the discussion could result in his administration getting rid of some vaccinations, Trump said: “It could if I think it’s dangerous, if I think they are not beneficial, but I don’t think it’s going to be very controversial in the end.”

Asked in the Nov. 25 interview if he thinks childhood autism is linked to vaccines, Trump said: “No, I’m going to be listening to Bobby,” referring to Kennedy. Trump said he had a lot of respect for Kennedy and his views on vaccinations.

Bobby, I would note, is a non-expert, indeed kook, on this topic. He is a conspiracy theorist whose utter irresponsibility on this topic has already had lethal consequences. He also has a record of being utterly irresponsible with his “evidence.”

Now, do I think that Trump will do away, as a general matter, vaccinations? No. But just entertaining Kennedy’s rhetoric about vaccines and autism is dangerous. He is mainstreaming junk science that will lead to people getting sick and, in some cases, dying.

Many of the claims that vaccines cause autism can be traced to a retracted 1998 study published in medical journal The Lancet. The paper, written by British doctor Andrew Wakefield, has been widely discredited.

Research, including a 2014 meta-analysis, opens new tab of studies involving more than 1.2 million children, found no association between vaccines and autism.

Autism advocacy group Autism Speaks says it “remains aligned with the scientific consensus, which confirms that vaccines do not cause autism.”

I would note that I have heard (and I noted in a recent post) that GOP politicians are starting to parrot Kennedy’s nonsense. This is how bad ideas filter into the broader public. I would note, too that Kennedy’s general popularity has increased as many people are rallying around his “Make America Healthy Again” sloganeering.

Further, note, that Trump himself helped usher in the current politics of anti-vaccines given the linkage of frustration over COVID-19 policies and vaccines (and yes, I am aware that Trump tries to have it both ways on those specific shots). Indeed, even prior to the ascendancy of RFK, Jr. we were seeing a partisan divide on childhood vaccinations. Gallup reports: Far Fewer in U.S. Regard Childhood Vaccinations as Important.

We are dangerously close to the removal of requirements being politically viable, making the talk above reported by Reuters very concerning.

Again, Republicans largely account for this change:

  • Thirty-six percent of Republicans and Republican leaners believe the government should require vaccines, compared with 53% in 2019. Most Republicans, 60%, now oppose government vaccine mandates.
  • Democrats’ views on the matter have shown no meaningful change — 69% believe this now, and 72% did so in 2019.

I maintain that the problem is that people are either too young to know, or have otherwise forgotten, how commonplace these diseases (e.g., measles, mumps, whooping cough, and chickenpox) were.

Note this 2018 piece from UNICEF about global measles: Measles jab saves over 20 million young lives in 15 years, but hundreds of children still die of the disease every day. People like Kennedy threaten the reversal of such progress and the retarding of further steps toward eradicating these diseases.

Just within the US, see this CDC page detailing the history of measles.

A vaccine became available in 1963. In the decade before, nearly all children got measles by the time they were 15 years old. It is estimated 3 to 4 million people in the United States were infected each year. Among reported measles cases each year, an estimated:

  • 400 to 500 people died
  • 48,000 were hospitalized
  • 1,000 suffered encephalitis (swelling of the brain)

Preventing millions of infections and saving hundreds of lives is a good thing, and therefore vaccines are a fantastic human innovation. During most of my life, such an observation would have been an nonpartisan and widely accepted view with only fringe types thinking otherwise. Now the fringe types are likely to be in charge of HHS.

I will throw in the following on chickenpox (varicella). I had chickenpox as a child, as I was born well prior to the existence of the vaccine. My children were all born after the vaccine. None had chickenpox (indeed, I don’t recall any of their friends or classmates gettting it, either). I am pleased that none of them had to suffer through it.

Also, as the New England Journal of Medicine notes, the vaccine has saved lives.

For the interval from 1990 through 1994, the average number of varicella-related deaths was 145 per year (varicella was listed as the underlying cause in 105 deaths and as a contributing cause in 40); it then declined to 66 per year during 1999 through 2001. For deaths for which varicella was listed as the underlying cause, age-adjusted mortality rates dropped by 66 percent, from an average of 0.41 death per 1 million population during 1990 through 1994 to 0.14 during 1999 through 2001 (P<0.001). This decline was observed in all age groups under 50 years, with the greatest reduction (92 percent) among children 1 to 4 years of age.

But instead of listening to scientists and assessing the evidence, Trump is “going to be listening to Bobby.”

Elections have consequences, indeed.

FILED UNDER: *FEATURED, Healthcare Policy, US Politics, , , , , , ,
Steven L. Taylor
About Steven L. Taylor
Steven L. Taylor is a retired Professor of Political Science and former College of Arts and Sciences Dean. His main areas of expertise include parties, elections, and the institutional design of democracies. His most recent book is the co-authored A Different Democracy: American Government in a 31-Country Perspective. He earned his Ph.D. from the University of Texas and his BA from the University of California, Irvine. He has been blogging since 2003 (originally at the now defunct Poliblog). Follow Steven on Twitter

Comments

  1. Scott says:

    Over the last few years, I’ve been documenting a lot of family history. The number of childhood deaths that have occurred just a 100 years ago are astonishing. One example, in August 1905, my Great Grandaunt lost her two children (ages 5 and 10) five days apart to diphtheria. Today, we just can’t imagine such an event.

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  2. Jay L Gischer says:

    If autism is so bad, what does that say about Trump’s close buddy Musk? Musk is clearly spectrum.

    I’ve known quite a few people who are spectrum. It’s not a death curse. It doesn’t permanently cripple people – people like my cousin who had polio as a child and has had to use crutches and now a wheelchair her whole life.

    I don’t really have to guess what she thinks about anti-vaxers, and she’s a Mormon.

    But yeah, the “vaccines cause autism” stuff is garbage. It leverages the distrust people have in Big Pharma, a distrust which I endorse, only I note that “it doesn’t work that way. You have to look elsewhere for the bad faith.” You know, like the oxycontin thing, which was real.

    I would really like to see if we could leverage those fears and suspicions into something valuable and real. I’m not enough of a politician to know what or how, though.

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  3. Kathy says:

    The only known effect of vaccines related to autism, is that more people on the spectrum survive childhood diseases than did before widespread vaccinations.

    There is a wrinkle in so-called childhood disease. While many of these were often caught in infancy, they are by no means exclusive to children. When contracted in adolescence or adulthood, they have a much worse effect on the patients. Most of these cannot be cured or effectively treated, either.

    BTW, I can’t recall which vaccinations I got*, but I recall getting many. So I assume I got all that existed at the time. I do know I was rarely sick, while many of my classmates missed school due to measles and mumps.

    I’m too old to have gotten the chickenpox vaccine, but just the same I never had chickenpox. Luck.

    *I do specifically recall the Sabin polio shot, because it was taken orally rather than by injection.

    1
  4. becca says:

    My maternal grandmother had polio as a child. She had a withered leg and had to wear special shoes. I think she had one pair. She only took them off to bathe or sleep. She couldn’t walk without them. I remember her in curlers and a nightgown with those ugly black clodhoppers and rolled down stockings on.

  5. Jay L Gischer says:

    Is it just me, or do other people interpret, “We’re going to have a big discussion” as “Nope, not doing that.”

    I mean, Trump is Mr. Hype. If he had intentions of doing it, he would be trumpeting it to the moon and back.

    This doesn’t fit with a general narrative of “Trump is awful”. Except to me it is awful. “Vaccines cause autism” is an idea that will hurt people. Lots of people.

    Meanwhile, “we’re going to have a discussion” is the sort of politician speak that righteous truth-teller Trump supposedly never engages in.

    2
  6. Sleeping Dog says:

    A childhood friend had polio, it was diagnosed early and he was able to recover. An adult friend. wasn’t so lucky and required leg braces & crutches or a wheelchair all his life. Additionally he died young, in his late 40’s.

    I had chickenpox and measles as a child and can remember how miserably sick I was, also had more than one friend that suffered from extensive scarring from the pox.

    As far as autism is concerned, my understanding is that the highest correlation is the age of one or both parents at the time of conception. It is rumored that Baron Trump suffers from an Autism spectrum disorder.

    Like @Steven, I don’t believe that trump will follow through on his vaccine ramblings, most likely members of his family and younger staff will reel him in.

    2
  7. gVOR10 says:

    Trump himself helped usher in the current politics of anti-vaccines given the linkage of frustration over COVID-19 policies and vaccines

    Given my current reading, I find the juxtaposition of this with James latest post entertaining. James notes that among other dictators Trump invited Nayib Bukele of El Salvador to the inauguration.

    In Democracy’s Resilience to Populism’s Threat Kurt Weyland looks at a lot of successful and unsuccessful populist authoritarian leaders. Bukele and Fujimori were the only successful “neoliberal”, i.e. right, authoritarians in Latin America. After years of rule, Fujimori ended up faxing his resignation from Japan, leaving Bukele the only sitting right authoritarian. Weyland believes that success for a right populist, i.e. becoming popular enough to push through quasi legal changes allowing them to rule by decree and overcome term limits, requires overcoming two serious crises. El Salvador had a serious crime problem and COVID. a real crime problem, not a FOX/GOP pretend problem. How did Bukele succeed? He did a strict nationwide shutdown, while supplying financial aid, followed by an aggressive vaccination program. That cut deaths from COVID way down. Fortuitously, the shutdown also cut seriously into crime. He was a hero. El Salvador has reported something over 600 COVID deaths per million population. With Trump’s approach, the U. S. has reported over 3,000. So I find Trump cozying up with Bukele entertaining.

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  8. DK says:

    ‘You shouldn’t call conservatives and Trump voters stupid and uneducated.’

    Or they should stop inviting the description by voting in stupidity?

    Blue states and counties will continue to vaccinate our children no matter what Trump’s government of unqualified druggies, sex criminals, and billionaire oligarchs says.

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  9. Jay L Gischer says:

    @DK: I think the best way to handle an enemy is to make them a friend. This is a strategic matter. Calling someone “stupid” is not conducive to making them a friend. I don’t know what the value to you of calling someone stupid is, so I can’t weigh the decision for you.

    And it is true that we aren’t going to recruit MAGAs en masse. But we don’t need to. Even peeling off 5 to 8 percent would make a big, big difference.

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  10. CSK says:

    I had chicken pox as a child. It was miserable. My mother kept me out of school for an extra day. When I went back to class, the demonic old bitch who taught first grade said frostily, “Only one week allowed for chicken pox, Susan.” I was six years old. Did she think I played hooky?

    No wonder I hated school.

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  11. al Ameda says:

    We’ve become two nations again, some of the important splits are obvious:

    Expansive Reproductive Healthcare Rights for Women
    vs … Very Restricted Reproductive Healthcare Rights for Women

    Strong Belief in the Scientific Efficacy of Vaccines
    vs … Skepticism of the Scientific Efficacy of Vaccines

    We’re a hollowed out nation: with 10 or so Blue States (aggregated on the West Coast and Northeastern seaboard), and about 40 Red States (expanded from the old Confederacy, through the Great Plains and into the Upper Rocky Mountain States.)

    But, not to worry, now that Trump won this election, the fever has broken, and he is going to unite us, whether we like it or not. /s/

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  12. Jen says:

    I was born overseas, in a country that had a 4% vaccination rate at the time. My mom has stories about her fears over us (my sibling was born there too) getting measles, or smallpox. When I was a bit older, we lived in another country where smallpox was recent enough that there were plenty of people who’d survived who had scars. It might be overstating it to say I’m only alive today because of vaccination, but given my surroundings, it probably did keep me from getting some nasty illnesses.

    I had a horrible case of chickenpox. The threat there is two-fold: you catch chickenpox which can be nasty enough, but years later, you can get shingles. (I’m vaccinated against that now too.)

    I feel for those who are going to end up being collateral damage in this stupidest of all conflicts–those unable to be vaccinated due to allergies or illness, who rely on herd immunity to stay safe.

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  13. Paul L. says:

    Wasn’t the number of cases for the diseases (e.g., measles, mumps, whooping cough, and chickenpox) going down before the vaccines were mandatory?
    Also remember that Jacobson v. Massachusetts suspends the US Constitution if US population is not properly vaccinated.
    @DK:

    Blue states and counties will continue to vaccinate our children no matter what

    Where do the progressive new age crystal magic antivax nature over technology hippy loons and kooks live?

  14. Just nutha ignint cracker says:

    @Jay L Gischer: It’s good to know that someone believes that MAGAts will emulate anything other than the behaviors of their “mentor.” As for me, the best I can do is go by “as much as it within you lies, live at peace with your neighbors.”

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  15. Just nutha ignint cracker says:

    @Paul L.: I don’t know. Would you like to provide some documentation from credible sources, or are you going to continue to ask rhetorical questions that have no impact because they’re not actually rhetorical?

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  16. Michael Reynolds says:

    @Paul L.:

    Where do the progressive new age crystal magic antivax nature over technology hippy loons and kooks live?

    In places where we ignore them. Because they’re idiots. That’s the difference between us and you. You elect the idiots we ignore.

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  17. becca says:

    Well, mumps can cause male infertility so I assume that vaccine is a keeper.
    The mighty sperm must flow, after all.

    8
  18. Pete S says:

    @CSK:

    I (born 1968) had chickenpox as a kid too. It was awful. I think I was back to school in a week but as you say that was all someone could miss for an illness.

    My daughter (born 2003) got chickenpox but had been vaccinated. She got a total of 8 spots and none of them itched. That is to me the value of vaccines – even if they don’t eliminate infections, they can control symptoms.

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  19. Charley in Cleveland says:

    Trump talking to RFK Jr about vaccines = two guys who are about 1/10th as smart as they think they are discussing something they know nothing about and agreeing with each other. It would be funny if it were taking place at the end of the corner bar, but the platform these two have make their “opinions” dangerous. {Trump’s position on tariffs is similar to Bobby Junior’s on vaccines: no matter how many times he is told tariffs are paid by consumers his only response is, “I don’t believe that.” Precisely what he said to Kristen Welker, and precisely why his stand on tariffs will never change.}

    6
  20. Gustopher says:

    @Jay L Gischer:

    Is it just me, or do other people interpret, “We’re going to have a big discussion” as “Nope, not doing that.”

    I interpret it as “we’re not going to have a discussion, and I don’t really give a shit what happens on this.”

    @DK:

    Blue states and counties will continue to vaccinate our children no matter what Trump’s government of unqualified druggies, sex criminals, and billionaire oligarchs says.

    There are no blue states/counties/cities, merely blue-governed purple states/counties/cities. If the federal government eliminates the ability of states to require vaccinations for children entering public school, we could very easily get vaccination rates below herd immunity for a lot of diseases. We would be less impacted than rural Idaho, but still quite impacted.

    I half expect we will discover that antivax sentiments are being promoted by venture capital owned hospitals or something. Like Exxon promoting “climate change is a hoax”. I don’t quite believe it has to be happening, but I would not be at all surprised if it was.

    3
  21. Kathy says:

    @DK:

    Blue states and counties will continue to vaccinate our children

    One thing often left out, and which I wonder about a lot, is: who pays for vaccines?

    In Mexico, all childhood vaccinations are offered free at public health institutions to all children, regardless of whether their parents are affiliated with a particular institution or not. Usually they hold events, national vaccination weeks, to vaccinate as many children as possible.

    Most pediatricians will also offer and administer vaccines. Some even require it of all their patients. These come with a cost. In my day, they were subsidized by the government, but I’ve no idea whether this is still the case.

    From what i know about America’s healthcare system, leads me ato assume insurance pays for vaccinations (it’s in their interest, after all), but I don’t know this.

    While I don’t think the felon or the brain worm victim would ban vaccines, they may interfere with how they are made, distributed, given, and who pays for them.

    1
  22. Scott F. says:

    Trump sez:

    The [insert phenomenon here] is at a level that nobody (read: Trump himself) ever believed possible. If you look at things that are happening, there’s something causing it.

    This is the utterance of the blowhard at the end of the local bar, while the drunken patrons think to themselves “he must know a thing or two!” Only this blowhard won the Republican party nomination to POTUS and 77.3 million voters were drunk on the price of eggs.

    3
  23. Jen says:

    @Paul L.:

    Wasn’t the number of cases for the diseases (e.g., measles, mumps, whooping cough, and chickenpox) going down before the vaccines were mandatory?

    Yes, but barely. Improvements in sanitation and nutrition did have an impact, but those would have leveled off, still leaving a lot of death and disability.

    Also remember that Jacobson v. Massachusetts suspends the US Constitution if US population is not properly vaccinated.

    That’s a childish response. Jacobson v. Massachusetts established that ONE person’s liberty is not absolute, and that protecting the community is a valid use of state power. It was smallpox at issue, FFS.

    12
  24. Jay L Gischer says:

    @Just nutha ignint cracker: Very few of the rank and file Trump supporters – that I’ve talked to anyway – will shill him as the greatest ever. It’s more like, “He will break things and things need to be broken”.

    Some of the things they are angry about are things that *I* am angry about. I don’t care to align with Trump, who doesn’t actually care about anything but himself. But I think it’s possible to align with them. Already I see some things I agree with.

    Look, for instance, at the outpouring of anger with health insurance companies. That says opportunity for Democrats, I would think.

    And the suspicion and mistrust of Big Pharma is also an opportunity. I’m not a good enough politician to know how to do it, though.

    3
  25. Matt Bernius says:

    @Paul L.:

    Wasn’t the number of cases for the diseases (e.g., measles, mumps, whooping cough, and chickenpox) going down before the vaccines were mandatory?

    If you are really interested in the answer, at least for measles see this graph that include data back to 1921.

    https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/measles-cases-and-death-rate

    If you extend a trend line to the decline in both deaths and cases prior to widespread availability of the vaccine (~1966-68), there is a net negative trend. However, it’s also clear that the introductions of vaccines clearly leads to a much sharper downward trend to almost 0 (with the exception of the outlier years where there is a temporary spike–like in the 1900 (see: https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2019/05/13/722944146/how-public-health-outreach-ended-a-1990s-measles-outbreak-and-whats-different-no ).

    Of course, as with most data interpretation, an individual’s milage may vary–especially if they have already decided that they are right (or believe the debunked work of disgraced people like Andrew Wakefield is actually correct).

    5
  26. dazedandconfused says:

    My doc has a coffee cup which always seems to be in a prominent location on his desk that says: “Your Google search (does not equal symbol) my medical degree”

    I suspect there may be a lot of those on the desks in the NIH and FDA in the near future.

    5
  27. Kathy says:

    I can see a pit in a circle of hell where antivaxers get exposed to smallpox, then offered any treatment they want or make up, except for a smallpox vaccine. After they suffer and either recover or “die,” they are then exposed to rabies and given the same choice. And then they start over.

    Smallpox and rabies vaccines are effective after contagion. But this is rare for most infectious diseases. Remember some antivaxers dying of the Delta variant of the trump virus begging for vaccines? Had they worked that late in the the course of the trump disease, they would have gotten them. But, for most diseases, once symptoms appear it’s already too late for a vaccine.

    Hell, I’d make that offer to the felon and the whale hunter, and even expose them myself in the unlikely case they’re that stupid and consent to it.

    BTW, speaking of rabies, I can see some antivax pet owners might skip vaccinating their pets. This could be a major deal, as they’d be ideal vectors for rabies.

  28. Mister Bluster says:

    I met my friend Joe in 1973. We were both in our mid 20s. He contracted the polio virus as an infant. He told me about the scalding hot baths his mother would give him when he was very young as it was believed to be therapeutic at the time. Didn’t do a thing to improve his condition. His family lived in a small town in central Illinois where in the 1950s there were no services for disabled children so he spent his grade school years living in a State run institution in Chicago where he could get the 24/7 assistance that he required. He was wheelchair bound his entire life. By the late ’60s there was enough support available in Pana IL for him to live at home with his parents and attend the local High School. That was when he got his first electric wheelchair. When I met him he had just graduated from from Southern Illinois University with a MA in Radio and TV. That’s one thing he accomplished that I never did. After several years of allegedly attending classes I was a college dropout. One of the first things we did together after he trained me how to be his personal attendant was travel. His parents got him a Ford Econoline van for graduation that was not rigged for him to drive. I drove the two of us on a four week round trip from the midwest to the west coast and return. When we were in California he got to take a tour of the Everest and Jennings factory just north of Los Angeles where his wheelchair was made.
    During the entire 4 week journey the only time we did not sleep in the van was when we stayed with friends in San Francisco for several days.
    After our return I ended up working as Joe’s personal attendant for about a year. After that I would be on call in case his regular attendant needed relief. While it was polio that brought us together and made us lifelong friends till he died in 2008, I know that he would have lived a good life without ever knowing me if he could have walked and done all the other things able bodied people do.
    However I would not trade our friendship for anything.
    Joe Koontz
    1951-2008
    RIP

    (Don’t even ask me what I think of these wretched people who want to do away with vaccines.)

    10
  29. steve says:

    The right has spent years undermining expertise and competency while promoting conspiracy theory and tribal affiliation. This is part of the end result. I have to confess that I am a bit tired of trying to argue over this stuff with people who have no clue what they are talking about. They think that citing another no-nothing like Kennedy makes them an expert. Just look at one of the claims here. The polio vaccine should be invalidated because there was no double blind study. Setting aside the ethics in this situation (of course the right is way too eager to set aside ethics) I, and every other clinician I know, would much rather have 60 years of real world experience with a therapy rather than one double blind study.

    Steve

    12
  30. Matt Bernius says:

    @steve:
    But a scientist was wrong once!

    Beat that logic, egghead!

    (If course, those folks never apply that same logic to the argument they believe)

    8
  31. just nutha says:

    @Jay L Gischer: I’m certainly “things need to be broken” sympathetic; I just don’t see Trump as being a guy who knows which things need it and how to break them. Beyond which there’s the problem that whoever is going to be the breaking agent will need the assistance of a Congress that is institutionally predisposed to favor continuation of the status quo. (Better reelection prospects.) I don’t see the likelihood of anything getting broken let alone things that will advance liberty and shared prosperity. But Trump may be useful if people are looking for chaos rather than solutions. I dunno.

    ETA: Additionally, “breaking things” has usually gone with embracing progressive and/or populist candidates and agendas. How will that square with the “beating the Republicans/appealing to the center is job one” people who comprise a significant portion of the Democratic Party and/or this commentary cohort?

    2
  32. BugManDan says:

    @Jay L Gischer: I worry the anger at Big Pharma is going to split in two directions. One, and the one I prefer, is universal healthcare of some sort. Two, vaccines shouldn’t be required, it just puts money in Pharma’s pocket.

    3
  33. Matt Bernius says:

    @just nutha:
    Life has been keeping me from writing, but the concept of “move fast and break things,” which is often associated with the tech space, is a topic I have been meaning to write on forever.

    The tl;Dr is that when you apply that to government related spaces, the things that get broken are people.

    6
  34. Gavin says:

    Getting measles, polio, rubella, and malaria is nature, Paul.

    New age crystal magic antivax nature-over-medicine hippy loons and kooks are Republican politicians, Paul.

    One thing Republicans are not, however, is progressive. Progressives want to increase the minimum wage and decrease the number and impact of corporate monopolies on our economic life…. which are things Republicans don’t want to do.

    5
  35. Kathy says:

    @Matt Bernius:

    A scientist that’s been wrong once, only had one idea in their life 😀

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  36. JohnSF says:

    Well, on the bright side, after the US is depopulated following the mass epidemics, Greater Canada and Nova Mexico can come into their own.

    On a more personal note, my mother always mourned a beloved younger sister who died from polio in 1949.
    And anti-vaxxers can, as the Scots saying has it: “get tae fuck, in hell”

    9
  37. JohnSF says:

    @Jen:
    I had a rather nasty case of chickenpox in the early ’90s.
    Fortunately for me, it wasn’t shingles.
    But still, extremely not fun.

    @Paul L.:
    The antivax argument about “decreasing incidence” omits both the massive death and long-term debility impact of a chronic infection rate, and the potential for such diseases to mutate, in the massive modern population pool, into more virulent and lethal variants.
    It is simply NOT TRUE that all disease inevitably trend to milder variants over time.
    Host killing drives that; but if you get get higher infection rates outweighing host-kill rate, you are royally fucked.

    See histories of plague variations from 1300 to 1700.
    How the hell do think the Great Plague of 1665 came to be, 300 years after the Black Death?

    10
  38. Paul L. says:

    @Jen:
    Jacobson v. Massachusetts established if a person refuses a vaccine they can be subject to a modest fine. Not house arrests, Covid isolation camps and vaccine mandates with zero due process.
    But a cop committed misconduct once!
    Just a few bad apples! Just need MMMMOOOOOORRRR training and a Law Enforcement Bill of Rights!
    @Gavin:
    New age crystal magic antivax nature-over-technology hippy loons and kooks just want lower taxes and government regulation?

  39. Kathy says:

    @JohnSF:

    Well, Canadian premieres (I gather these are the equivalents of state governors), are gearing up for retaliatory moves to the felon’s tariffs.

    Give them some depopulated land where they can send “help,” and I’m sure they’ll know just what to do.

    1
  40. Modulo Myself says:

    My guess is we are spiraling into deep shit. Here’s Matthew Yglesias saying Jay Bhattacharya is a thoughtful pick to head the NIH. Bhattacharya is an obvious fraud, but if anybody knows how to get on their knees as power decides to do something like invade Iraq, it’s a feeble dimwit like Yglesias, who has an audience of equally feeble dimwits.

    I think there’s a genuine rage in this country in every place, high and low, against the last bits of methodical and civilized work which produces actual vaccines, even in a for-profit system. I don’t think most people are against polio vaccines, but the horse has the left the barn. Twist a few knobs, and this will become just another spectacle where even victims of polio will end up being angry at the elitism of the pro-vaccine side.

    3
  41. Gavin says:

    Paul, thank you for comparing Republicans to the Star Trek episode that’s often described as a parody of the Muppet Show.

    5
  42. Paul L. says:

    @Gavin:
    It was pandering to the “enlightened counterculture way of the future” and the theme was repeated in Paradise (Star Trek: Deep Space Nine).

  43. DrDaveT says:

    I maintain that the problem is that people are either too young to know, or have otherwise forgotten, how commonplace these diseases (e.g., measles, mumps, whooping cough, and chickenpox) were.

    I maintain that the problem is organized disinformation campaigns by well-funded enemies of America. Wanna bet on it?

    6
  44. Monala says:

    @Paul L.: no one in the US was subject to house arrest or Covid isolation camps. And the limited vaccine mandates that existed (generally, in government or healthcare settings) usually gave people a choice: vaccination or weekly testing.

    8
  45. just nutha says:

    @Matt Bernius: I don’t think I’d disagree about “move fast and break things” (and I’m not big on tech bro philosophy for that matter), but I’ll note that without the willingness to challenge the status quo, we’d not have been likely to get the New Deal. Protect people? By all means. Prefer protecting egos to avoid making changes that will break accepted falsehoods? Meh…

    3
  46. steve says:

    Most hospitals had mandatory vaccinations but the large majority allowed for exceptions for religious beliefs or other “sincerely held beliefs”. Beckers did a nice review of this at the time and it resulted in roughly about 5% of people being exempted.

    Steve

    3
  47. al Ameda says:

    @Paul L.:

    Where do the progressive new age crystal magic antivax nature over technology hippy loons and kooks live?

    I’ll let you do the Google research on that one.
    We don’t have to ask where anti-vaxxer MAGA voters live.

    7
  48. DK says:

    @Jay L Gischer:

    I think the best way to handle an enemy is to make them a friend.

    I think the best way to handle an enemy is to cut them off. Life gets much better when you realize it’s not your job to fix toxic people, and that your limited time on earth is better spent hanging out with the non-stupids.

    The value of calling stupid behavior stupid is that sometimes the best intervention is for a person to hear the blunt, unvarnished truth. Instead of having their nonsense tiptoed-around and catered to. It’s shocking and sad how many times that, as their therapist, I’ve been the first close acquaintance to tell a person, “You’re full it, your behavior is unacceptable, and based on your choices, you can’t be smart” + hold the boundary and refuse the blame-shifting excuses.

    If you’re smart, be smart. If you don’t want to be called stupid, stop it. The “he tells it like is” crowd out to be able to handle it, no?

    And we don’t need to “recruit” a single MAGA voter to win presidential elections. There’s millions of de-motivated Biden already there.

    5
  49. DK says:

    @Paul L.:

    Where do the progressive new age crystal magic antivax nature over technology hippy loons and kooks live?

    In your psychotic rightwing fever dreams?

    At any rate, blue states and counties will continue to vaccinate our children, despite the Make Polio Great Again campaign of frog-voiced heroin addict RFK, Jr., and any directives the rest of Trump’s unqualified DEI-for-MAGA cabinet.

    3
  50. @Jay L Gischer:

    Is it just me, or do other people interpret, “We’re going to have a big discussion” as “Nope, not doing that.”

    Except for putting RFK, Jr. in that position and the way his COVID politics have translated into broad anti-vax sentiments in the general population, I guess we can just dismiss this as bluster.

    My non-snarky version: people keep saying that he is all bluster, and I agree a lot of it is bluster, but that doesn’t mean he isn’t creating real harm.

    3
  51. @Paul L.:

    Where do the progressive new age crystal magic antivax nature over technology hippy loons and kooks live?

    Tell you what: I am going to agree with you that there is a contingent of the far left who reject vaccines. Indeed, 10 years ago (ish), that is where I would have located the anti-vax movement and RFK, Jr. would have been in their camp.

    And, for the record, they were (and still are) wrong. And Dr. Sevrin and his space hippies in Way to Eden very much would represent those types. They rejected science and died as a a result, despite their sincere beliefs in an alternative.

    To analogize, RFK., Jr. is Dr. Sevrin and Trump wants him in charge of the HHS.

    I would note that the Federation and Starfleet were exemplars of the promotion of science and rationalism and were the good guys. They were pro-vax and pro-science. They believed that applied knowledge and expertise could improve humanity.

    Back to the new age crystal types: contemporary Republicans have now taken their place as the main face of the anti-vax movement.

    7
  52. @DK:

    DEI-for-MAGA

    Not to pick on DK specifically, as this is really a broad comment. Every time someone calls an unqualified, or otherwise terrible candidate a “DEI” hire they are just reinforcing the notion that DEI is about filling quotas and categories, In other words, it confirms the anti-DEI position.

    I know what the rhetorical point is supposed to be, but I just thought it worth noting what it ends up accomplishing, IMHO.

    4
  53. Kingdaddy says:

    @Steven L. Taylor: You’re just being a Herbert.

    1
  54. Gavin says:

    The “E” in DEI means “equity.”
    That represents hiring based on objective skill rather than connections.
    Before DEI was a thing, incompetent white males were hired based on who they knew rather than their actual skill.
    The unqualified hire is…. not a DEI hire.
    Hiring someone based on talent is, in fact, a DEI hire.

    5
  55. @Kingdaddy: Ha!

  56. Jay L Gischer says:

    @DK: I read with honest delight that you are a therapist. You might have mentioned this before, but I did not catch it if you did.

    I think the thing I am interested in doing is what you do professionally, and would like some relief from when you are not working. And yes, I know that therapists will sometimes refuse patients because they can’t envision aligning themselves with that patient.

    Pehaps it might interest you to know that I have more than one person I love who has some fairly serious mental illness? And I still do the best I can to love them and nudge them in healthy directions?

    From what I know of therapy, the therapist can only “call someone on their bullshit” – which can be quite important – and expect this to have a beneficial effect, if they have already established an alliance with the patient. Is this correct?