Six Baltimore Police Officers Charged In Death Of Freddie Gray
Big news out of Baltimore and, perhaps, the beginning of justice for Freddie Gray.
In a move that surprised some given previous warnings that the investigation may take time, the State’s Attorney for Baltimore announced today that Freddie Gray’s death had been determined to be a homicide and that charges, ranging from murder and manslaughter to assault, had been filed against the six Baltimore Police Officers involved in the incident that led to his death:
BALTIMORE — Prosecutors here, in an unexpected announcement, said Friday they had probable cause to file homicide, manslaughter and misconduct charges against police officers in the death of Freddie Gray, who died after sustaining a spinal cord injury while in police custody.
In a news conference, the state’s attorney in Baltimore, Marilyn J. Mosby, described repeated mistreatment of Mr. Gray. Time and again, she said, officers abused him, arresting him without grounds and violating police procedure by putting him in handcuffs and leg restraints in the van without putting a seatbelt on him.
Ms. Mosby also said the officers had repeatedly failed to seek medical attention for Mr. Gray after he was injured. By the time he was removed from the van, she said, “Mr. Gray was no longer breathing at all.”
“We have probable cause to file criminal charges,” Ms. Mosby said.
The death, Ms. Mosby said, is believed to be the result of an injury Mr. Gray sustained while riding in the van without a seatbelt.
Ms. Mosby also said that the knife the police say Mr. Gray was carrying had not been a legitimate basis for his arrest. “The knife was not a switchblade, and it is lawful,” she said. She said the officers had “failed to establish probable cause for an arrest.”
(…)
One officer, Caesar R. Goodson Jr. was charged with second-degree murder, manslaughter, assault and misconduct in office. Lt. Brian W. Rice was charged with manslaughter, assault, misconduct in office and false imprisonment. Officer William G. Porter and Sgt. Alicia D. White were each charged with manslaughter, assault and misconduct in office. Officers Edward M. Nero and Garrett E. Miller were charged with assault, misconduct in office and false imprisonment.
More from The Baltimore Sun:
The six Baltimore police officers involved in the arrest of Freddie Gray – who died last month after being injured in police custody – have been charged criminally, State’s Attorney Marilyn Mosbyannounced Friday.
Mosby’s announcement on the steps of the War Memorial Building was greeted with cheers and applause. Mosby said she told Gray’s family that “no one is above the law.”
Word traveled quickly of the charges against the officers. In West Baltimore, cars honked their horns. A man hanging out of a truck window pumped his fists and yelled; “Justice! Justice! Justice!”
At the corner where Gray was arrested, 53-year-old Willie Rooks held his hands up in peace signs and screamed, “Justice!”
Meecah Tucker, 23, wearing a T-shirt that read, “I Bleed Baltimore,” said: “If it was one of us doing that against a police officer, it would be first-degree murder.”
In Gilmor Homes, the neighborhood where Gray lived, things were quiet Friday, with a police helicopter circling overhead. At the intersection of North Avenue and Pennsylvania Avenue, the focus of rioting Monday and demonstrations all week, traffic moved through with many motorists honking their horns.
Warrants were issued for the arrest of all six officers. It wasn’t immediately clear where the officers were Friday morning.
Officer Caesar Goodson Jr., 45, who was the driver of a police van that carried Gray through the streets of Baltimore, was charged with second-degree murder, manslaughter, second-degree assault, two vehicular manslaughter charges and misconduct in office.
Officer William Porter, 25, was charged with involuntary manslaughter, second-degree assault and misconduct in office.
Lt. Brian Rice, 41, was charged with involuntary manslaughter, second-degree assault and misconduct in office.
Sgt. Alicia White, 30, was charged with involuntary manslaughter, second-degree assault and misconduct in office.
Officer Edward Nero, 29, was charged with second-degree assault and misconduct in office.
Officer Garrett Miller, 26, was charged with second-degree assault, misconduct in office and false imprisonment.
If convicted of all charges, Goodson would face up to 63 years in prison. Rice would face up to 30 years and Porter, Nero, Miller and White would face up to 20 years.
Mosby’s recounting of the events as revealed by the investigation conducted by both her office and the Police Department is quite chilling:
In a detailed recounting of the events, Mosby described Gray being repeatedly denied medical attention by police officers, even as he asked for medical help and later was unresponsive in a police van.
Gray suffered a “severe and critical neck injury” as a result of being handcuffed, shackled and being unrestrained in the van.
Mosby said an investigation found officers placed Gray in wrist and ankle restraints and left him stomach-down on the floor of a police van as they drove around West Baltimore. Despite his repeated requests for medical attention, they did not provide it and continued to drive without securing him in the van, she said.
Officers on at least five occasions placed Gray in the van or checked on him and failed to secure him, she said. By the time they reached the Western District police station, he was not breathing and was in cardiac arrest, she said.
Mosby said her office did a “comprehensive, thorough and independent” investigation that began April 13, the day after Gray was injured.\
“My team worked around the clock, 12- and 14-hour days,” she said.
Mosby worked quickly in filing charges. Baltimore Police handed over their investigation to her office Thursday, one day earlier than they had promised.
More details of the charges will be contained in the indictments ultimately filed in this case and, of course, as these cases proceed forward through the legal system. As with every other person charged with a crime, it is important to note that these officers are entitled to a presumption of innocence until they are proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. If the charges that Mosby detailed this morning are accurate, though, it would seem to be clear that they did not grant Freddie Gray the same presumption, nor did they even act with the kind of sympathy and respect you would expect from an officer of the law when dealing with someone who is injured and in pain. Instead, it would appear from the facts alleged that they took Gray on what is known colloquially as a “rough ride,” in which a suspect is restrained and placed in the back of a police van unrestrained while the officers take the van on a high speed ride through city streets that results in the suspect being tossed around the interior. Indeed, Gray’s case is not the first one in which someone was injured while being transported in a Baltimore police van. In this case, it appears from what Mosby has represented about the contents about the autopsy, as well as a report that was released yesterday, that the injury to Gray that proved to be fatal occurred when his head struck something inside the van, but there also appears to be a suggestion that he was injured to at least some extent prior to having been placed in the van or possibly during one of the times that the van stopped on its way to the police station where it was ultimately found that Gray was unconscious and unresponsive in the back of the van.
Today’s developments come at the end of a rather interesting twenty-four hours in which a number of reports were released in anticipation that something might be announced today. The Baltimore Police held a press conference early yesterday morning in which they announced that they had completed their investigation and turned their findings over to Mosby, but there were many leaders at the time who were cautioning residents that it could take some time before the State’s Attorney decides how to proceed. At the same time, The Washington Post came out with a report supposedly based on a leaked portion of that investigation which said that another prisoner who was in the van with Gray for a portion of the trip to the police station told police that he could hear loud noises coming from the enclosed cell next to him, supposedly evidence that Gray was trying to injure himself. By the end of the day, however, a reporter for one of the local television stations had tracked this second prisoner down, and he made it clear that what was reported in the Post was heavily exaggerated and that he never heard any loud noises. Then, late last night, it was reported by a British newspaper that the man who had shot the cell phone video that originally led people to start asking questions about Gray’s death had been arrested for reasons that nobody seems to be able to figure out.
At least in the short term, this should go a long way toward calming things down in Baltimore and in the other cities where protests have popped up this week, including New York City, Washington, D.C., and Philadelphia. To a large degree, it was the perception that the case was being swept under the rug that was driving the protests to begin with, and now that charges have been brought. At the same time, though, it’s worth noting that, as with the cases of Michael Brown, Eric Garner, Tamir Rice, and Walter Scott, the issues raised by the death of Freddie Gray go beyond one single case and one single police department. The perception among African-Americans at all income levels that they are treated differently by police is one that is based in reality, and it’s something that ought to be taken seriously rather than dismissed, which as Conor Friedersdorf points out today, is the way that many conservatives seem to treat the entire issue of police abuse. Additionally, while nothing can justify the rioting that took place in Baltimore on Monday, the reality of what people who live in inner city areas like Baltimore’s is something that America rarely pays attention to until something like this happens. The conditions that led to what happened in Baltimore exist in many parts of the country, all that’s waiting is a spark to set them off. We can either figure out how to deal with those problems now, or deal with those problems when the explode in violence.
In any case, the State’s Attorney has acted appropriately in this matter. Now, we should let the legal system do what it is designed to do.
I see a lot of calls for BPD officers to walk off the job in protest. I am in 100% agreement. They absolutely should walk away, and open up positions to people who understand the flat out unsustainability of the current model.
I’ll just disregard the idiocy involved in protesting charges filed against authorities involved in, at best, negligent manslaughter.
Well, good ole El Rushbo was running with the Washington Post article yesterday, not quite saying that Grey’s injuries must have been self-inflicted, so this would be another example of the left creating a story of police violence where there is none. Expect the right to identify the charged officers as martyrs prosecuted on trumped up charges soon.
Doug left out that If the officer driving Freddie Gray’s van {Officer Caesar Goodson Jr} refuses to speak to investigators. But it is wrong to mention that because 5th.
Support the Federal Law Enforcement Bill of Rights.
@CB:
You’re forgetting the false imprisonment charge. False imprisonment is a felony. If someone dies in the course of a comission of a felony, felony homicide makes it murder even if you didn’t intend to kill them.
The one thing we need to realize is that this isn’t a few bad apples. We’ve had decades of governments looking the other way on police brutality, especially when it is visited upon black people. Dozens, perhaps hundreds of people have been subjected to these rough rides or worse. The threatened walkouts and the responses of, “How DARE you question us” are a direct result of that. If a corporate culture were this sick, you’d fire everyone and rebuild the company from scratch. I don’t think we need to go that far, but firing a few folks isn’t going to fix this. Baltimore PD doesn’t need a bandaid; it needs major surgery.
This needs to be verified by a third party medical examiner immediately. I’m sorry but at this point anything that comes out of Baltimore PD or is associated with them professionally needs to be treated with a healthy dose of skepticism. Pinning it on the “rough ride” and not the actions is the arrest is somewhat dubious; while you can certainly break your neck in a car ride, it seems somewhat unlikely that what was caught on camera did so little damage to Grey physically it warrants a “suggestion” of injury and was not listed as possible contributing factor.
It also has the added benefit of taking a measure of guilt off the officers in question. It removes the bloodstain directly from their hands and makes them inattentive villains rather then cruel tormentors. A great way to minimize what they can in this most blatant act of violence – no cameras on the ride gives plausible deniability and the whole “we didn’t know he was badly hurt!” crap.
@Just ‘nutha’ ig’rant cracker:
Actually, I’ve been encouraged by some on the right wing taking this seriously. Bill O’Reilly, of all people, called for a zero tolerance policy for police brutality. Their biggest problem is that they don’t grasp the diseased cultural norm that is at the bottom of this.
The allegation that Gray injured himself was real but ridiculous. It takes a lot to break someone’s neck, least of all severe their spine.
I haven’t really been paying attention to the details. When somebody told me about the “rough ride” stuff I thought they were making stuff up. Now that it’s confirmed, I’m completely appalled. Six officers contributed to this? Not one of them had the guts to stand up and put a stop to this?
I agree with CB … please go ahead and walk off if you can’t admit this was wrong. And don’t come back.
@Hal_10000:
Even if it is, don’t forget that the proverb “bad apples” comes from is “one bad apple spoils the entire barrel”.
Let’s not forget that his crime was making eye contact with an officer and running away. He had a switch blade on him, that is what led to his death. Allegedly having a switchblade on him became a capital offense.
@Dave D:
Except the police lied about the switchblade. It was a perfectly legal pocket knife:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/prosecutor-knife-switchblade-found-clipped-grays-pants-pocket-30729688
@Dave D:
It wasn’t a switchblade. The knife he was carrying is perfectly legal in Maryland.
But I see your point about it becoming a capital offense.
@Dave D:
And it wasn’t even a switchblade!
…D’oh. Stormy has it covered.
More than 30% of the arrests in Baltimore are bogus.
Including this one, which was for having a legal knife.
Even so…I got $20 says the cops get off, again.
@Paul L.:
Oh, so is this your new right wing hero? You must be so proud. Instead of swearing to “protect and serve” this guy thinks his job is to “swerve and project.” I hope you take a ride with him someday.
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/05/01/police-union-influence-maryland-runs-deep/
Police unions play a significant role in Maryland politics, from campaign endorsements to influence peddling. According to public records, the largest police associations, including the Baltimore Fraternal Order of Police, donated $1,834,680 to state politicians over the last decade and retained several of most prominent lobbyists in the state.
“Our people said that the committee leadership was worried about the police reaction,” explained Thomas Nephew, an activist with the Montgomery County Civil Rights Coalition, who was present at the March 12th hearing. “One of the legislative leaders said something like, if these bills go through, the cops will riot in the streets, which really tells you something.”
Police unions gonna Police union.
@CSK:
@CB:
@C. Clavin:
Hah! Nimble dragon claws win again!
Once again, this seems to be the most common link among all of the publicized incidents over the past couple of years. The level of provocation and/or justification behind the initial confrontation varies wildly, from “none at all” to “yeah, probably guilty as hell”. The absolute indifference to suffering and medical need is without exception.
@Franklin:
It’s actually worse than that. It wasn’t six officers — it was four officers, a sergeant, and a lieutenant. If that doesn’t scream “department policy” to you, it should.
@Stormy Dragon: I hadn’t seen that. This makes it so much worse. No wonder he was running from them.
Ho hum…. How ’bout them Cards?!
@Franklin:
As Frank Serpico discovered, police departments work on a “snitches get stitches” policy.
@Hal_10000: The thing was, not only was his spine 80% severed, his larynx was crushed as well. How does a person do both to themselves?
The Baltimore police seem to be acting like a protection racket: pay up or we walk off and hey, who knows, someone might break your windows or beat up your mother. And then you’ll stop questioning how we do our thing.
None of these cases have involved “bad apples.” When additional cops arrive on the scene and immediately participate rather than at the very least restraining fellow officers, it’s absurd to talk about bad apples. These are thoroughly rotten police departments, thugs in uniform.
What’s changed is cameras in cell phones. Suddenly decades of allegations of police brutality – inevitably dismissed – are demonstrated to be true. Police are out-of-control gangs hired to defend the wealthy and suppress the poor. No different that strike-breaking Pinkertons or the secret police in any number of repressive countries.
Police officials – including the idiots who run the police unions – need to get it through their heads that this sh!t won’t fly anymore, not in the age of cellphones. Juries watch TV, too, and people will be much more skeptical of cops in the future. The entire edifice of the criminal justice system (hah!) is crumbling behind overturned death sentences, new science about eyewitnesses, bogus FBI “science” and widespread police brutality.
Thing one: End the drug war. This all goes back to the drug war which, in terms of its impact, is a war on vulnerable minorities. Get cops off of hassling people on possession charges and low-end street dealers, and focus them on violent crime. Cops should be there to protect life and property, not public morals.
And it goes back to having a society saturated by guns, a frightened society, paranoid, which feeds both police paranoia and hair-trigger reactions.
@Dave D:
From the post above:
Ms. Mosby also said that the knife the police say Mr. Gray was carrying had not been a legitimate basis for his arrest. “The knife was not a switchblade, and it is lawful,” she said. She said the officers had “failed to establish probable cause for an arrest.”
Dude on Twitter was talking about how successful a cynical attitude is when it comes to making predictions about victims of police brutality receiving justice. Didn’t reply, but wanted to say that’s how society works: you keep doing the same shit all the time until someone starts a riot, then you make as few changes as possible until the next one. Been that way at least since the 1500s under less-forgiving tyrannies. The mob rules, and if you do crap stupid enough to get a mob on your institutional ass, you’d best make some changes before they kill you.
Perhaps we might grow soft enough one day that the mob’s worst threat against you is torching your house, and no one thinks of killing anybody to get a point across, but that is an illusion in our modern day too many people have.
It was fun to watch the press conference with the prosecutor, Ms. Mosby just for the open disdain she showed for the reporters at the end.
If she brings this home look for her in a Governor’s race somewhere down the line.
@michael reynolds:
THIS. A thousand times this. For the first time in history we can record almost anything when it happens. There is no need to trust authority to be honest because now we can see what they’re doing and hold them accountable. The thing about the Big Brother concept is he watches everyone. Potential eyes everywhere and citizenry that understand ht power of video means evil has less places to hide.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Nikon, Samsung and Apple are picking up the slack, apparently.
The city as well as the police leadership are just as guilty. They’ve got several multi-million dollar settlements for “rough rides”, yet they didn’t see the benefit of outfitting the transport vans with cameras and other sensors? Or make it a fireable offense to not follow proper securing procedures for restrained suspects?
If only the Democrats were permitted to run the city and African-Americans were in city government and the police leadership.
@JKB:
I was all set to thumb up that till you go and ruin it with the partisan crap at the end. Do you really need to go for a pointless cheap shot when you already have a valid point? Bad authority is bad, regardless of what letter is after their name.
@michael reynolds:
Yeah…probably not so much.
More likely states will simply make it illegal to record police activity. This seems unconstitutional to me…but so does using religious freedom as an excuse to force an employers beliefs onto their employees…and yet here we are.
It saddens that this tragedy has marred Socialist Massacre Celebration Day.
@KM: Something that most people don’t notice about 1984: the people under the worst scrutiny by Big Brother were members of what my HS English teacher called the Outer Party, the bureaucrats like Winston Smith and other government workers. As long as the proles (read: us) are fat and happy (read: not rioting), Big Brother was always more concerned with deviation from orthodoxy inside its own government machine.
What we have here is proles rioting, which means someone in the Outer Party (read: this time it’s the police, next time probably a garbage collector strike or something) really screwed up. Multiple times at least. Americans only get lazier with the passage of time: stirring up an American riot in 2015 is much harder than it was in 1999, or 1968. If you can get an obese population to get on their feet and say you’re a bastard, then you’re making Baby Machiavelli and Baby Talleyrand-Périgord cry.
@C. Clavin:
The courts have consistently upheld the right of people to record police activity, although some state rep in Texas wants to make it illegal there for a non-press person to film from a distance of less than 25 feet.
Prosecutors in states with strong laws about wiretapping and second-party consent to being recorded tried to use these statutes to prosecute people who filmed/taped/recorded arrests or other police activities..
@Franklin:
Since Mr. Goodson is black, I doubt the rightwing will put much effort into protecting him. Mr. Goodson is going to learn that black law enforcement have no friends.
@C. Clavin:
Nah, you can’t outlaw cell phones or taping cops. Unconstitutional, no way, no how do the Supremes allow it.
@KM:
Well, them plus Rorschach of course.
I hope this brings a halt to the violence, both public and private, that has rocked Baltimore.
I have my doubts that the police officers will be convicted on the charges. Based on published accounts it’s hard to see how the charge of 2nd degree murder in particular would stand. The defense that the original arrest was a mistake should obviate the possibility of predicate felony. If every mistake by every police officer is a possible felony, you probably won’t retain many police officers.
I also hope that these charges and arrests won’t bring an end to the refocusing of attention on the problems of our cities. The end of violence rather than be a good time to rest on our laurels is the perfect time to identify ways and means of remediation.
@KM: …and JKB is the only one you note throwing in a pointless partisan cheap shot at the end of a comment?
@Dave Schuler:
It may not have been a mistake. It may have been sadism or it may have been payback for some earlier interaction.
I suspect the reason for the top end charges is to push some of the cops to roll over on the others. The first to testify gets the best deal, and with their careers in law enforcement effectively over, they’ll start looking to their own welfare. Cops do not want to go to prison.
If you want quick remediation you need to reduce the friction between the police and the people, and that means pulling cops off lifestyle crimes and onto the crimes the community actually wants solved. They need to follow the lead of the fictional Baltimore Police Major Bunny Colvin and end the drug war. That single decision would move the ball halfway to a better relationship.
Jobs would be good, too, obviously. But first, stop arresting kids and their parents for drug use. Not every drug user is a terrible parent or worthless employee. An awful lot of great music has come from heroin addicts, a lot of great comedy has come from coke users. If we would cut through the propaganda of the drug warriors we’d see that enforcing drug laws does more damage than the drugs themselves.
Someone on Twitter noted that it took 12 days for the Prosecutor to charge the police in this case-whereas it has been 160 days since the drive by police shooting of 12 year Tamar Rice (recorded on video!).
Maybe Cleveland needs a riot? (for which, of course, there is quite obviously, no excuse.)
It does seem that the black community usually has to shout as loud as it can to get any justice at all in police brutality cases-and then often not even then (cough, Eric Garner?)
Michael:
Yes, and it’s also a key way of suppressing D votes. About a million black people can’t vote because they’re in jail.
And the person who built the most valuable company in the world was someone who said “taking LSD was a profound experience, one of the most important things in my life.”
@michael reynolds:
My point was not that it was a mistake but that it can be claimed to have been a mistake.
@michael reynolds:
Seriously? The Roberts Court? You underestimate them.
@JKB:
Oooooh…someone has been watching Fox News again!!!!
@CB:
Seriously, no cop thought to have a drop blade? Rookies.
@michael reynolds:
The same thing happened here in NYC last Christmas after the Eric Garner protests. Cops stopped giving quality of life tickets and street cleaning tickets. As the NY Post reported, and probably being unintentionally ironic, the cops were having a slowdown and “only arresting people when necessary.” Arrests and tickets dropped a reported 93%.
Wrap your mind around that. Only 7% of the arrests in NYC are considered “necessary” by the police. The rest? Basically revenue collection for the city, hassling minority teens, and making people miserable because they were five minutes late moving their car for street “cleaning.”
Let the Baltimore cops walk off. Let the NYC ones as well. They’ve shown us that their jobs really aren’t as important to law and order as they pretend.
@Facebones: Drop blade? W. Bush was too dumb to take along a couple vials of anthrax to drop in Iraq. Is it fair to expect better planning from police than the president?
I’ve enjoyed talking to (most of) you folks over the years, but this commentary is honestly just too much for me to stomach any further. I’m out of here. I wish you all well in your future endeavors.
This seems kind of quick to have a thorough investigation. I am also not sure of a murder charge. They would have to prove intent. At best would be a manslaughter by negligence charge. But they need to have clear, indisputable evidence, not some trumped up conjecture, hypothesis, profile, theorem, guess work, feelings, some law professor’s theory, spin the wheel, or an effort to placate the crowd. This could easily wind up being another Casey Anthony, Zimmerman fiasco with a jury decision of not guilty or even thrown out by a judge.
There are other possible explanations: an accident, another prisoner did it, a mob hit, or previous condition.
I will admit openly that I do not have a lot of formal legal knowledge.
@Tyrell:
Not if the death occured in the commission of a felony:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony_murder_rule
@CSK:
One of those states was, in fact, Maryland.
http://dockets.justia.com/docket/maryland/mddce/8:2012cv03592/221705/
@Hal_10000: And yet, Rush this morning described the charges laid against the officers as “the rape of justice and the rule of law,” at which point, one of the ditto heads called to ask if this incident was the latest step “the federalizing of law enforcement.”
I’m glad that some on the right are taking this seriously. It opens the possibility that thinking, rather than reacting, will start happening. The idea that the right will see the systemic elements that this type of event indicates is a bridge too far for me.
(And normally, I don’t listen to the right wingnut echo chamber, but I just got back from 8 years abroad rented a car for the week and couldn’t resist indulging myself as a guilty pleasure. The other highlight of the week was the assertion by Michael Medved that Hillary’s assertion about the US having 5% of the world’s population and 25% of the imprisoned of the world simply shows that the US is 5 times better at enforcing the law and bringing people to justice. WTF???!!!???)
@HarvardLaw92:
I will miss you and your thoughtful and reasoned style of arguing a point. Truthfully, it always seemed to me that you were out of place here.
@Another Mike:
I dunno. He couldn’t really point to that much that was factually wrong with most of the commentary, though, could he? He just…didn’t care for the tone. Oh dear.
I see this a lot with former prosecutors — they sort of get….emotionally captured, I suppose, by the police, and start to assume, whether conscously or not, that their job is to stand with the cops per se rather than with justice.
@Rafer Janders:
I think it’s more a road to serfdom thing. DA’s that don’t toe the police line get trashed as “soft on crime” in elections, so non-capturered prosecutors never get promoted and are eventually constructively dismissed. Eventually only the true-believers are left.
@HarvardLaw92:
Really? Out of all of the commentary that has happened here this is what did it for you? Why not make your case whatever that may be rather than leaving in a huff?
So we would hope.
I can’t remember the last gbcw here.
@Grewgills:
There is no case to make. This panel has determined its verdict long before today’s announcement of charges, and challenging the orthodoxy of what has increasingly become some sort of self-congratulating mental masturbation society / echo chamber just doesn’t interest me much any longer. To be frank, it never really has. I’m not sure why I stuck around as long as I did.
An HONEST discussion of this subject would by necessity involve a challenge to the blanket “cops bad / poor oppressed people good” nonsense that has been bandied about over the last few days, and it would involve facing some uncomfortable facts that I suspect this bunch of apologists would be incensed about being confronted with. I grew up in Baltimore, so I can speak to those uncomfortable facts from first-hand experience, but why bother? What’s to be gained at this point? They don’t want to hear it. In their own way, they’re every bit as closed minded as the right-wingers they excoriate.
In that light, let the echo chamber do its thing. I’ll be doing mine by volunteering my services pro bono to the defense.
A troll is “one who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument.”
I remember when you said this:
“Present a pinata designed to cause you and others like you to react” is just a longer way of saying “deliberately provocative,” and I think what we’re seeing from you is just another deliberately provocative “performance.” You have already warned us that anyone who takes you seriously is probably “mistaking a performance for a position.”
@Stormy Dragon:
Case in point, the Baltimore FOP is already threatening the political career of City Councilman Nick Mosby for merely being married to a state’s attorney that dared indict cops:
An Open Letter to State’s Attorney Marilyn Mosby 5/1/2015
@ Jukeboxgrad
For example …
Riddle me this: Maryland, and Baltimore in particular, has some of the most generous welfare & assistance programs int the nation. A single mother living in Baltimore (of which there is a surplus, given the facts that 2/3rd of the city’s births are to unwed mothers, and 60% of the city’s households are headed by single parents) qualifies for a buffet of assistance. TANF, SNAP, Medicaid, Housing Assistance, Utilities Assistance, WIC, Emergency Food Assistance, etc. The list goes on and on, to the point where a single mom with 2 kids in Baltimore receives the equivalent of $18.35 an hour in benefits.
We’re throwing money at them, and yet nothing has changed in West Baltimore in my lifetime. Nothing has changed in Sandtown. We have the same shiftless, lazy people (which is what they are – uncomfortable facts …) sitting around on steps that we had when I was a child. We’ve thrown literally hundreds of billions of dollars at the problem, and yet we’re worse off than when we started. You can’t expect anything different from people who expect nothing from themselves, and that’s just how it is.
Baltimore has a black mayor. A black state’s attorney. The bulk of the police force is black, as is the police commissioner. The fire chief is black. 8 of the 15 members of the Baltimore City Council (a majority …) are black. To assert that these people have no political power, that they are unrepresented, in the face of those facts is frankly bullshit.
Yea, I get slavery this, and redlining that, but you know, all that ended long ago. I’m fed up with the endless historical excuses that are offered up to excuse the fact that quite a large chunk of this community just doesn’t give a damn. They’d rather sit around and blame everyone and everything else but themselves for a problem that they do little, if anything, of their own volition to alleviate. They live in a hell of their own creation, and I just don’t feel sorry for them any longer. They’ve burned that goodwill up. My sympathy now is reserved for the people whose distasteful job it is to corral them and keep them under control so the rest of us can live our lives out in some semblance of order.
If you consider that to be trolling, you have bigger problems than being offended by me. I’d suggest spending a few weeks in West Baltimore as a remedy.
@HarvardLaw92:
And what of the above justifies arresting a person who’s broken no law and then bouncing them around the back of a van until their neck snaps?
@Stormy Dragon:
In other words “It is clear that the natives are going to take their anger out on your husband, given where his constituency is located, unless you throw them some white sacrifices to keep them placated.”
They aren’t threatening her career. They aren’t threatening his. They are not too subtly suggesting that she’s playing politics by pandering to her husband’s base, and given the short span of her “investigation”, I’m inclined to agree. Job number one at this point down on Holliday Street is to keep certain sections of the city quiet. In that reality, was there ever any doubt that, regardless of the circumstances, that these officers weren’t going to be charged with something?
@HarvardLaw92: Too bad you’re leaving. On every damn thing except “law and order” you’re an extremely interesting voice. I guess once a prosecutor, you never think anybody ‘gets’ the impacts of crime.
@HarvardLaw92: “In that reality, was there ever any doubt that, regardless of the circumstances, that these officers weren’t going to be charged with something?”
Yes, and as that I offer the last 50 years. Where were you?
@HarvardLaw92:
PS – The dramatically storming out in a huff thing doesn’t work if you keep coming back to see if people miss you yet.
@Stormy Dragon:
A known drug dealer with multiple convictions for narcotics trafficking standing in a drug-infested area who runs from the police justifies arrest, IMO. The courts have been clear on that point.
As for the bouncing around, you weren’t there. I wasn’t there. You’re assuming that it happened, I suspect because you dislike the police. I suspect that it didn’t. There’s enough reasonable doubt introduced by the testimony of the other passenger that he injured himself, and that’s all that I need to hear. Given the choice between 6 decorated cops and one drug dealer, I know who I’m, more likely to believe.
@Turgid Jacobian:
No, I’m just beyond fed up with apologists. Do I favor the police? Absolutely. It is what it is.
@HarvardLaw92:
I think you are reading things into comments if you think that is what is being argued. There are bad cops and there are cops and others protecting them. I think that is hard to deny at this point. There are certainly problems in the community, some from within, but some also imposed from without (redlining etc). I don’t think that is much in dispute either.
Seriously? It doesn’t seem to be disputed at this point (not even by the police involved) that Gray was picked up for a legal pocket knife, then restrained him and put him in the back of a van without belting him in for a ‘rough ride’. Following that he was not given medical treatment. That also is not in dispute. Why would you go out of your way to offer your services pro bono to officers who did this?
@Turgid Jacobian:
You’re missing the point. They could be utterly blameless and they’d still be charged with something to placate the hordes down in West Baltimore who’ve made a drug dealer into their latest hero du jour. That’s reality. The alternative is another riot.
@HarvardLaw92:
Except not. Running from the cops can establish reasonable suspicion (Illinois v. Wardlow), but arrest requires probable cause. Gray’s flight justified the police stopping him and searching him, but when the stop revealed no evidence of an actual crime, they were required to release him.
Instead they fabricated an imaginary switchblade to justify arresting him on bullshit charges.
PS – Am I the only one who notices that HarvardLaw92 never cites any actual cases for his legal opinions?
@Grewgills:
Gray was picked up because he ran, and between his arrest history and the crime-infested nature of the area, that’s sufficient cause to arrest him. The knife was discovered after he’d been apprehended.
The rough ride thing is disputed, and frankly, I just don’t believe it. Failing to provide medical assistance? Fine, I’ll accept negligence, but murder? Good luck …
Why would I go out of my way? Because I’m too familiar with the folks that live in West Baltimore, and I’m too familiar with Baltimore politics. I’ve decided that I believe they’re being railroaded in order to placate the natives, and they deserve a defense. Why wouldn’t I volunteer to assist?
(6 Posts later.)
Promises. Promises.
@HarvardLaw92:
I for one don’t think the guy was a “hero” – and I’m not sure anyone else does. Looks like he was a petty criminal who was not committing any crimes when he was arrested. He certainly still has rights even with an arrest sheet. It seems pretty clear that this was an end-to-end clusterf**k by the cops in question that ended with a man dying for no good reason that I can see.
I have no problem going to bat for a cop that is doing his job the right way. What happened here was wrong, wrong, wrong.
@HarvardLaw92:
Do you really think it at all likely that Gray crushed his own trachea and nearly severed his own spine, or do you just think you are a good enough attorney to convince a jury of that?
@HarvardLaw92:
The city’s paid out millions of dollars the past few years for doing it to other people and you still don’t believe. Funny how you’re willing to arrest Gray based solely on past behavior yet fail to suspect the police based on their past behavior.
@HarvardLaw92: Fair enough, man. I tend to be skeptical of them.
@michael reynolds: “An awful lot of great music has come from heroin addicts, a lot of great comedy has come from coke users.”
Yeah, let’s pump the breaks a bit. Heroin didn’t make those addicts musical and coke didn’t make those users funny. They did make some of them dead and even more complete wrecks.
It’s one thing to be against our disasterous drug policies. It’s another thing to be pro-heroin for pity’s sake. What’s next? Meth makes you a really alert security guard?
Mike
@HarvardLaw92:
Of course the cops deserve a defense. And Freddie Gray, criminal or not, deserved to live to see another day.
I’d be curious to see you case that these guys are being railroaded. Their behavior seems pretty egregious to me.
@Stormy Dragon:
Or they simply made a good-faith error about the nature of the knife. You have proof of this knowing and intentional fabrication? See where this is going?
Feel free to call up Marilyn Mosby and offer her your assistance.
@anjin-san:
They’re being treated like peasantry and being subjected to the same justice as everyone else. Don’t we know the King’s Men are susposed to be above the law?
@HarvardLaw92:
Ignorance of the law is no excuse. Unless it’s actually your job to know the law. Then, meh! Whatever.
@Stormy Dragon:
The city settled lawsuits, which all cities do on a regular basis. You’re intelligent enough to know why they do that, and you’re intelligent enough to know that it doesn’t establish verification of the underlying allegations.
You want to believe that the police are bad. Knock yourself out. I disagree, so I’m volunteering to help defend them. Given a choice between 6 decorated cops and a neighborhood full of drug dealers venerating a drug dealer, it’s doesn’t even require a second thought.
@Stormy Dragon:
I’ll take that as “No, I do not have any evidence to suggest that this wasn’t a good-faith error”. Thanks for playing.
@HarvardLaw92:
and now it’s your contention that these decorated officers couldn’t tell the difference between a switchblade and a normal pocket knife? Seriously? Is that really the standard you want police held to?
@HarvardLaw92:
I think everyone here will stipulate that you are a talented attorney. But we are not in court. Do you believe that the cops made a “good faith error” regarding the knife?
I’m curious, are right and wrong important to you here, or do you just want to help your team win?
(btw, I was raised by a pretty fair attorney, so I know all about the will to win that drives good lawyers)
@HarvardLaw92:
Sounded pretty troll-y to me too. Sounded like Superdestroyer…
“It” didn’t end all that long ago. And its going to take more time that just yours and my lifetime to heal.
True change is only starting. There’s a long way to go.
Its honestly hard for me to believe you’re being serious.
@anjin-san:
Unless he injured himself, which is not outside the realm of possibility.
@PT:
It ended 50 years ago. Just how long do you think will be required for these people to step up and take responsibility for their own lives?
Or should we just double the amount we’re spending on them to no apparent gain?
@HarvardLaw92:
I was a drug dealer for a long time. I worked behind a bar, making drinks for some of the richest, most famous, and most successful people in America. But alcohol is legal, in spite of the hideous carnage it leaves in its wake.
The guy at 7.11 that sells you a pack of smokes is a drug dealer too. Cigarettes killed my father.
Are you so sure of the ground you are standing on when you make moral judgements about drug dealers?
@HarvardLaw92: I absolutely don’t agree with this. See, lots of us can go on fact-free excursions.
@anjin-san:
Truthfully? Yes, I do. More importantly, I believe that a jury will believe it too. It offends me that what passes for city government in Baltimore is likely throwing these people to the wolves in order to buy peace.
@Grewgills:
Both …
@Turgid Jacobian:
Have you ever lived in Baltimore? LOL
@HarvardLaw92:
Take that as “it doesn’t matter whether or not it was a good-faith error”. If someone was caught with a knife that was actually illegal, the fact they made “a good faith error” about what knives were allowed would not be a defense to a weapons charge in court. I merely expect the cops be held to the same standard as the rest of the public. If a general citizen is expected to keep up with the petty details of what knives are and aren’t legal, it doesn’t seem to onerus to expect the same cops, who are paid considerable somes of money to keep up to date on such matters.
@HarvardLaw92:
Sure. It’s possible he crushed his own larynx and severed his own spine.
It’s also possible that I will have a threesome with Ashley Judd and Sandra Bullock. Possible but not very likely.
@HarvardLaw92:
Ha, now I’m sure you’re trolling.
@anjin-san: @anjin-san:
Given the nature of his convictions (it wasn’t marijuana he was dealing), yea, I am. I have no use for, nor will I mourn the passing of, a heroin dealer.
@anjin-san:
Point of order, I don’t. We have no actual evidence he’s a lawyer at all, much less a talented one. I certainly haven’t been impressed by his legal arguments.
@PT:
Why? Because you don’t like the question, or you don’t have an answer to it?
@HarvardLaw92:
Legality aside, how is heroin worse than alcohol? Please be specific.
@Grewgills:
Sometimes, if you can’t get a taxi, you have to leave in a huff.
@Stormy Dragon:
The good-faith error sanitizes culpability with regard to having made the arrest. You know what I’m arguing here. Don’t go off on tangents just because you dislike the argument.
Top five police departments you probably shouldn’t go out of your way to defend:
1. New Orleans
2. Baltimore
3. L.A.
4. Philadelphia
5. NYC
@HarvardLaw92: How many good faith errors are they allowed per dead black guys?
Knife? Sure, why know, I don’t know what an illegal knife looks like except when I’m charging them.
Unrestrained cuffed guy in back? Sure, I mean, it’s against policy and stuff but whatever.
Asked for medical attention? Eh, may be faking, forget that guy.
How many stops did we make? Three, definitely–after all a police report is a legal document! Oh, wait, yes that one we forgot… um, never mind that. Sure, we’d arrest a “civilian” for that kind of thing…
@HarvardLaw92:
They. Those people. Singular. As though they were an undifferentiated mass all moved by a single will.
These are individuals with individuals stories, individual beliefs and individual struggles. I’m reminded of the story of Lot. Are there no righteous men and women in Baltimore? Are they all shiftless and lazy? Are they to blame for their problems? Is each of them to blame? Every last one of “them?”
Tell me, if you’re 19 with a baby in your arms, where do you get to live in Baltimore on the minimum wage you earn at Burger King? It’s not in the better neighborhoods, is it? It’s in the ghetto. And once you’re there, making your minimum wage, spending two hours a day on a bus, begging child care from your relatives and neighbors, always terrified that social service will take your kid, terrified of the crime all around you, just what do you do to “fix” Baltimore?
We have street gangs funded by the drug war lording it over decent people. The police meant to protect the people are down in Harborplace protecting tourists, protecting the source of revenue. You can be hardworking and determined but you’ll still live your life trapped and helpless between gangs and criminals and thuggish police. What exactly are those millions of “they” supposed to do about it?
Give me your three point plan for how an unwed mom making minimum wage in Baltimore is supposed to fix any of this?
What do you think marginal people, people with no power, no money, no time, are supposed to do to fix the corrupt, impoverished mess that is Baltimore? The people who should be doing something – people with power and money and resources and time – are busy trying to keep their taxes down and have zero interest in ensuring that the poor are safe or fed or well-policed.
I don’t think you understand or have much sympathy for the poor. You don’t understand how radically different their lives are from yours. These people live their lives from birth to death in quicksand, and you don’t get it.
I would be sorry to see you bail. You’re highly intelligent and logical – and we’re not overburdened with folks like that. But this is not about logic, it’s about emotions – fear, hopelessness, worry, despair. The best analogy I can suggest is that you think back to the last time you had a bad flu. Think about how difficult every single little thing was when you had fever or chills. That’s a taste of what poverty feels like.
We’ve tried moral condemnation, and we’ve tried ignoring the problem, and we’ve tried paternalistic outside intervention. Nothing is going to work unless we get people jobs, or failing a job some meaningful function to perform in society. We have an ideological objection to that in both political parties. We need to rethink that ideology, because joblessness is likely to get worse and stay worse. We need a different paradigm because the old bootstraps thing is clearly not working.
Personally, I think the era of small government is over. Whether it’s Baltimore or the Appalachians or California’s Central Valley, we are splitting ever more clearly into haves and have-nots. Pretending that the have-nots are going to be able to pull themselves up is sheer fantasy. We need a different approach.
@HarvardLaw92:
It strains credulity. Honestly, how possible and how likely do you really think it is that Gray crushed his own larynx and nearly severed his own spinal cord?
@anjin-san:
You can’t excise legality. That said, which would you rather do, one drink or one hit of heroin?
Now that you have posted 11 times after your alleged self imposed exile I suspect it might have something to do with, what did U call it?
@HarvardLaw92:
Neither, I’ve been clean and sober for 26 years.
@Grewgills:
Who’s to say what he did to himself inside that box? We have the statement of another prisoner who asserted that, at a minimum, he was violent. I see no evidence that it occurred during the arrest, and I see no evidence of “rough riding”. I see a lot of allegations that serve to validate people’s predetermined conclusions, but I’m not seeing a lot of evidence.
@ernieyeball:
That opinion hasn’t changed. Frankly, this place has become more or less the left-wing equivalent of Freeperland IMO. Same devotion to orthodoxy and dogma, just at the other end of the political spectrum.
@MBunge:
No, and that wasn’t my point, although I wrote it carelessly so I can understand your reading of it. I was just making the point that we should not assume every guy with a drug problem is a dead loss to humanity.
@HarvardLaw92:
Heien v. North Carolina? (Again, why is the non-lawyer the one coming up with all the case law?) Again, that ruling only applies to the reasonable suspicion necessary for the initial stop, not the probable cause necessary for the subsequent arrest.
@michael reynolds:
Like I said before, nothing and nobody can help people who refuse to help themselves. West Baltimore today is populated by the same type of people it was populated by in the 1960s. They’re still where they are, despite hundreds of billions of dollars having been thrown at them, and you can not delete their lack of self-responsibility from that outcome.
I’m sympathetic, but I also know that what we are doing isn’t working. It will never work as long as these people prefer to maintain their status quo.
Bullshit. Maryland offers some of the most generous benefits and assistance programs in the nation. A single mom with 2 kids can bring in assistance worth over $18 an hour in addition to working minimum wage.
But – and this is the salient point – why would she when she’s being paid a healthy subsidy? Unemployment in Sandtown is 50%. Do you really think that’s entirely because there are no jobs for these people to do?
@HarvardLaw92:
You took the “maybe he broke his own neck” story with a straight face?
Good god, you really are a lawyer.
@HarvardLaw92:
As much as you are accusing others here of reacting emotionally and without evidence due to their biases, it seems pretty apparent at this point that you are allowing your dislike of “those people” guide your decision making more than any of the evidence that we have thus far.
@Stormy Dragon:
Again, why is the non-lawyer the one coming up with all the case law?
Probably because this @HarvardLaw92 is James P appropriating his name. The arguments are too “non-legal” and frankly dense to be the real guy.
@HarvardLaw92:
I think it’s worth noting that I was practicing alcoholic drinking from the very first drink, and that the stuff damn near ruined my life. Do I think that heroin is more dangerous than alcohol? Nope. And a lot of the individual and societal problems associated with heroin use are downstream consequences of it’s legal status.
@anjin-san:
I think we’re being trolled by James P. @HarvardLaw92 argues with law and precedent and a scalpel. This guy is about 30 IQ points south and too emotional.
@HarvardLaw92: Sorry to see you go. I am surprised that you find the charges so incredible, but that’s what a trial is for. People are always going to have opinions based on their experience and what is currently known, and in my opinion it doesn’t look good for the officers at all. Sorry if you don’t like that opinion.
As for the rest of your complaint, I’m sympathetic to the idea that there’s a cultural problem in many places. I don’t know what the solution is, either.
@michael reynolds: Crap, and I just replied to him. You may be onto something there.
HarvardLaw92:
I said you’re a troll because you said you’re a troll. You warned me that if I took your remarks seriously I would be “mistaking a performance for a position.” You said your goal was “to cause you and others like you to react,” and now you’re doing it again. Please proceed.
@michael reynolds:
No. It’s me. Live in Rye. Three kids. Partner at a white shoe in M&A.
You seem thrown by the fact that I could feel this way. Point blank? These people tried to kill my nephew Monday night, so whatever sympathy or goodwill they might have had with me is gone. Done. Over.
Anything I can do now to return the favor, I will do. If that involves helping defend these cops, then so be it.
Stormy Dragon:
He did this before. Link. More of the same.
@HarvardLaw92:
(1) Why are you taking the word of a criminal as gospel? Didn’t just go off earlier about how untrustworthy drug dealers are and wouldn’t take their word for it ? Why is this one suddenly acceptable? How exactly was he “violent” according to this person, what actions was he taking (kicking, screaming, banging head, etc) that lead to the incident?
(2) The medical examiner would have stated if it was self-inflicted. Seriously, the angle, force and pressure to serve a spine and fracture a larynx are pretty frigging distinctive and the direction of the break/severance would be obvious. If the handcuffed, shackled, unrestrained man managed to stand up in the middle of moving vehicle and hurl himself against something to incur such injuries instead of being caused by the police or the actual ride itself (since he couldn’t snap his own neck with bound hands and would have been free-sliding around too much to use a bench deliberately), don’t you think the ME would have put it forth to exonerate the officers? Or is he/she in on it too?
@michael reynolds: I don’t know–earlier on, he said his kid was a B’more firefighter who’d been out among the chaos. So, emotional reactions are pretty understandable.
Nephew.
@HarvardLaw92:
Wow. The mask slips, doesn’t it?
This is flat-out racist talk, and nothing else.
@HarvardLaw92:
For what crime? Cite it.
@HarvardLaw92:
Actually, it’s now 6 accused felons.
@Rafer Janders:
How can it be racist if it’s also accurate? Have you ever spent any time in West Baltimore? I have. I speak from experience …
Is any accurate criticism leveled at people racist, or is that simply your go-to pejorative for someone who’s saying something you dislike – but don’t seem to be trying to refute.
@HarvardLaw92:
Bullshit. A lie. It may be reason to detain him, but for an arrest, you need an actual crime. Avoiding the police (a reasonable tactic given their thuggery) and having a criminal history are not, in themselves, crimes.
Again: what crime was Gray arrested for? Cite it.
@Rafer Janders:
We’ll see how that one pans out. The last I heard, money was already pouring in for their defense, and if I can do anything to help get them off, I will. Murder is a reach, and I suspect you know that.
@anjin-san:
Easy on that “everyone.” Having gone to the same law school as him, I will, however, stipulate that he is an attorney.
It seems that the witness has stated that what he told the police had been exaggerated http://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2015/04/30/wjz-exclusive-the-other-man-in-the-van-with-freddie-gray-breaks-his-silence/
Rafer Janders, you noticed that he said this:
Which is no surprise, given what he has said before. Link:
On the other hand, he later said that these words of his were just “a perfomance.” Link. So keep in mind that you are dealing with someone who is into “perfomance.”
@HarvardLaw92:
So it has absolutely nothing to do with the facts of the case and whether or not you think the cops gave him a rough ride that ended in his death. It is all about your emotional response and your desire to get back at people that you feel threatened a family member. Justice be damned, if getting these cops off hurts the people that tried to hurt your nephew then that’s good enough, huh?
You seriously need to step back from this a moment and think about your positions rather than letting your anger about what happened to your nephew and your visceral dislike of poor people in Baltimore guide you.
@Rafer Janders:
Thuggery? You spend a day in those damn neighborhoods and then get back to me about thuggery.
They threw a concrete block at his truck. He was just trying to help them and they tried to kill him. THAT’S thuggery, friend.
@HarvardLaw92 :
And I am truly sorry about that – I suspect no one here wishes you or your family ill. We do enjoy your commentary and losing a poster makes this corner of the internet a little bit quieter. Being a firefighter is a tough gig and requires a special kind of person to keep going back day after day.
But you’re getting completely out of whack here. If this were the courtroom, you’d need to recuse yourself before the judge tossed you out. You are clearly flustered and emotional to the point you blinding siding with a group that’s opposite to those you feel hurt your family and waiving away facts in favor of bias. You have no problems throwing your lot in with police who have very little evidence backing them up solely based on your current emotional state. Please stop, put the keyboard down, take a deep breath, and think on this:
The nameless They you keep referring to? That’s how they may have viewed your nephew Monday. Not a person but a cog in a machine. Part of the problem, not a tear shed if something happens to him. It’s a terrible feeling, no? That your loved one is considered evil solely because of a stupid association some makes and acts out on it, putting them in danger and making their lives hell.
I don’t care what Gray did before hand; this was a BS arrest, regs were clearly broken and a life was lost. Something went wrong here and we owe it to the citizens of Baltimore and every good cop out there to get rid of the bad ones. Good cops and firefighters do not deserve to be tarred and feathered because there are azzholes in the department. You want to protect them? Then stop with the blind loyalty and get rid of the poisonous influences within. Dirty cops don’t deserve protection from good cops and prosecutors – a criminal is a criminal, after all.
@HarvardLaw92:
That’s true, he probably left the house with a severed spine and a crushed voice box.
It took the cops one hour to transport Gray a distance of six blocks, during which hour they made at least one extended stop. After that one hour ride, Gray, who had walked into the van, emerged from it with a severed spine and crushed voice box. But no, there’s no evidence of it…..
@Grewgills:
It will have to be. Where’s the justice for my nephew? The animals who tried to kill him and his fellow firefighters will never be brought to justice. Why are people so up in arms about one person who contributed nothing to society, but they seemingly couldn’t care less about firefighters? Hell, these people would probably defend and excuse their actions as well.
@HarvardLaw92:
I lived in poor African-American neighborhoods for several years. Hands down, the most aggressively thuggish were the cops.
Like I said: flat-out racist.
@HarvardLaw92:
I do feel for you about what happened to your nephew. My brother is a fire fighter and my mom was a prosecutor. I grew up around police, prosecutors and judges, then later city attorneys and other public servants in an area of the deep South that has pretty much all of the same problems Baltimore has and a worse history. I had a fair number of friends in the poorer part of town (coincidentally also the West End), so none of this is at all foreign to me.
Your nephew and his fellow fire fighters weren’t injured from what you said. What justice do you think he deserves at this point?
@Rafer Janders:
Which proves exactly what? Suggestive? Sure, but I think you know that you and I both can come up with a lot of suggestions about what happened that are equally plausible. I’m seeing a lot of circumstantial evidence, but you know where this one ends. The same place it always ends – in the jury box.
Juries don’t care about justice. They want to assign blame, and you learned that the same place that I did.
@Rafer Janders:
So it’s fair to say that your attitude towards cops is biased by your life experiences then. Mine are as well.
Like I said: not when it’s accurate.
Number of comments he has posted since saying “I’m out of here:” 22. I think he meant ‘I’m out of here until I post my next comment.’
@Grewgills:
Because African-Americans are simultaneously super-human and super-villain. They are expected to be happy in ALL circumstances, saintly in ALL interactions, and if they are not, they acquire supernatural abilities such as hulking up to run through bullets, shooting themselves in the head while cuffed, and snapping their own neck and larynx through sheer demonic willpower alone.
The myths of blacks in the US needs to be torn down. They are not controlled by a black Hive-mind, they do not lust for every white woman they see, they are not uncontrollable rage-machines that can break a cop in two with their bare hands, they are not solely motivated by greed and pleasure, and not all of them use drugs.
But America believes this because America is still scared shitless of black people. More than anything, that’s an admission of racism and white guilt right there.
@Grewgills:
I didn’t say they weren’t injured. I said they eventually made it home OK.
What justice do I think he deserves? It seems to me that cutting a working firehose when men are inside a fire and throwing a concrete block at a moving fire engine with firefighters inside certainly satisfies the elements of attempted murder. I’m more likely to be named Queen of England …
@HarvardLaw92: What justice did the dead man receive?
@michael reynolds:
Plot twist: they are the same person.
Moderators, I’m stuck in the spam filer. Only one attempt should be freed.
Note: just for what it’s worth, they caught one of the guys who was cutting firehoses. Know what Miss Crusader for Justice Mosby charged him with?
Obstructing firefighting operations, malicious destruction of property and reckless endangerment. Three GD misdemeanors. Seems pretty pale from where I’m sitting. I suppose drug dealers are more important to her than firefighters …
@Turgid Jacobian:
If he did it to himself, which is plausible, what justice does he deserve?
@HarvardLaw92:
How do we know your nephew didn’t try to kill himself? It’s certainly within the bounds of probability. Maybe he cut his own firehose….
@HarvardLaw92:
Oh no! That sounds dangerous! If it had hit him, it maybe could have severed his spine or crushed his voice box!
@Rafer Janders:
You mean besides the doer having been caught on video slicing the hoses? Nice try …
I suppose it’s certainly plausible that he teleported himself out of the truck up onto the bridge, tossed the concrete block, then teleported himself back into the truck.
No, wait, that was captured on video as well.
You have video of what happened inside that van that we don’t know about?
@HarvardLaw92:
Some prefer Scotch, some vodka, but me, I like nothing better than a fine whine…..
@Rafer Janders:
If you think that I’m going to entertain your suggestion that the life of a scum drug dealer matters more than the life of a good person like my nephew, you can go to hell.
Did he somehow “oppress” them too? Spare me …
@HarvardLaw92:
Where’s this video? I don’t see any video.
@Rafer Janders:
I see. You think it’s appropriate to target firefighters, put their lives at risk, and subsequently be charged with a misdemeanor.
Were the firefighters in your poor neighborhood thuggish and oppressing you too? Is that why you seemingly don’t value their lives, or at the least value the life of a drug dealer more?
@Rafer Janders:
https www youtube com/watch?v=S8W9iw6gx40
@HarvardLaw92:
Well, again, you SAY they were targeted, but I think you know that you and I both can come up with a lot of suggestions about what happened that are equally plausible. I’m seeing a lot of unsubstantiated claims about chunks of concrete and cut firehoses, but you know where this one ends. The same place it always ends – in the jury box.
@michael reynolds: I certainly agree that drug users should not be arrested and there should be decriminalization of drug possession. There should policies that take away the street profit. Then you can put the dealers out of business. Those who are serving time for possession or using drugs should be released.
As a child I held the F.B.I. in awe. I read about their agents and had great respect for Director Hoover, who personally went out on arrests of dangerous gang members. I thoroughly enjoy the “Criminal Minds” tv program which delves into the minds of the violent criminals.
In my life I have known policemen who were well respected members of the community, respected by all races. Why was this ? They took seriously their duty to serve the people. Most of them never drew their gun! They knew many of the citizens by name. They did everything from helping ladies cross the streets to rescuing cats. In summer they would get the fire depts. to turn on the hydrants so kids could cool off in the summer. I also remembered the time a policeman gave a ride to an older lady who had bags of groceries. They patrolled on foot. They did not wear all kinds of riot gear or military stuff. That was the police I grew up with.
@Rafer Janders:
What other plausible explanation can you offer for cutting a firehose when firefighters are clearly inside a burning building?
The thug felt like he needed a shower? By all means, impress me.
@HarvardLaw92:
You have video of them inside that burning building?
@HarvardLaw92:
It’s becoming pretty clear you don’t want justice – you want blood. Vengeance is not justice. Bitterness does not lead to truth and two wrongs don’t make a right. You are a reasonable adult – you know this.
That rage your feeling is what Gray’s family is feeling right now; someone hurt someone they love and the law is doing little about it. I’m sure Gray’s family is wondering why murder one isn’t on the table while you’re angry assault or higher isn’t in the cards. Can they prove, in a court of law in front of a jury that you previously stated only wants to cast blame, anything higher then what is currently charged with knowing they might skate if overcharged? How will you feel if they walk when a jury doesn’t agree it fits the criteria of attempted manslaughter?
I totally understand your anger and frustration. I’ve had my wrist broken in the line of duty at a previous job with absolutely nothing done to the offender – a goddamn knife fight I broke up to my detriment and several police reports. Dangerous jobs are hard on loved ones and it’s incredibly irritating to this day I never got the resolution I needed and eventually I just got a new job.
But Harvard? I lived. Your nephew lived. It could have been a hell of a lot worse. Breathe. Have a drink. Do some yoga if that’s your thing. Go spend time with your nephew or give him a call. The ass will do time, maybe not as much as you’d like, but something is better then nothing. You’re starting to see enemies here where there are none. Rafer’s needling you because the arguments you’d been making up-thread can be easily turned on you, trying to point out your feelings are clouding your debate. Parroting your own words back to get you to see what you are actually saying. That you’re falling for it is a sign it might be time to call it a night…..
@Tyrell:
so tell me, what did aunt bee’s pie REALLY taste like…
@Rafer Janders:
I suppose the firehose just drug itself inside the building?
Still waiting for that video of what happened inside the van, or is asking for it somehow “oppressing” you?
@HarvardLaw92:
No proof, fellow.
But, at a minimum: not to be left unrestrained in a dangerous moving vehicle, for starters. They have a reason for their policy. Violating their policy is knowingly subjecting someone in their power to EASILY AVOIDABLE AND POTENTIALLY MORTAL avoidable danger.
I guess that’s too much for you to ask of the brave men in blue?
@KM:
Say again? Six officers have been charged in his death, at least one of them with murder.
@Turgid Jacobian:
I’d call it negligence. Perhaps even reckless disregard. I might even call it manslaughter IF the prosecutor offered it up as a deal. I wouldn’t call it murder.
I have my doubts that the jury will either. This will almost certainly not go to trial in Baltimore City.
@HarvardLaw92 :
Murder in the second is the highest.
I’m not saying I agree or disagree with the charges – I’m saying the family is probably wondering why murder one isn’t on the table since they, like yourself, want the max sentencing done for the highest charge possible.
@KM:
It’s actually unlikely that he’ll serve any time, given the statutes in question, which is why it is such a slap in the face.
Why are you suggesting there was more than one cutter? Why are you suggesting that more than one hose was cut?
@KM:
I’m sure their lawyer can explain 2-201 to them. I’m capable of reading 2-206 on my own.
@ jukeboxgrad
Because hoses were slashed all over the city, and I can produce as many firefighters as you’d like to attest to that fact. Having been on scene, I think they’re probably reliable witnesses – and juries love them.
@HarvardLaw92: I basically agree with you on that if the defendants are private citizens, and expect you’re right that murder charges don’t stick. But morally I expect those who have real power to inflict violence and death in my name to be held to a higher standard.
That immunity standards exist to render their civil responsibility less than that of the average person offends me deeeply.
I have no idea why y’all continue to attempt rational argument with “they’re all thugs” hardboard law guy. Anybody who is willing to believe “maybe he crushed his own larynx while handicapped in the back of the van” is just too stupid to argue woth
Citation needed.
Any number greater than zero would be a good start.
I’m pretty sure this promise is as solid as another one you made recently: “I’m out of here.”
Some of you may consider this off topic, but the conditions in Baltimore (and many other urban communities) remind me of my days of working with the general population on the Indian Reservations in southwestern South Dakota.
80% unemployment, poor schools, crushing dispair, and little hope for their future, a tribal police force that was feared because they were bullies. It was better to sit at “home” and drink yourself to death. For teenage girls, they would intentionally get pregnate, not so much to get whatever governmental assistance was possible, but to have some (baby) who loved them unconditionally and the child would establish their self-worth. For the guys, they would join gangs, for the purpose of proving some self-worth.
You can claim that “we’ve wasted millions by pumping aid” into Baltimore (just as is done on the Rez), but it’s all for naught because it’s not what was really needed.
@Turgid Jacobian:
The standards regarding civil liability don’t so much subject them to a lesser penalty so much as they require a higher standard of proof. I think that’s fair, given that without them we’d essentially have no police forces at all. Nobody would do the job.
@Bob @ Youngstown:
What is needed?
@Cd6:
What is your preferred term for people who loot stores, burn down buildings, set vehicles ablaze, throw concrete blocks at firefighters and rocks at cops, slash working hoselines and generally engage in mayhem? Misunderstood?
Thugs seems accurate enough to me, but by all means please let me know what the PC term is for these people so I might avoid offending your delicate sensibilities.
@HarvardLaw92: Okay, interesting: thanks.
Paul L.:
When even someone like Jenos notices that you cited a parody with a straight face, then you are in special territory.
You will have to try harder if you expect to get as much attention as our more prolific troll.
@HarvardLaw92: Maybe you should try that Cornell Law professor guy’s blog. Very intelligent commentary there. Check it out. He even spells out the name of his blog phonetically. (And he makes me ashamed that we are in the same profession).
@Cd6: He’s a genocidal racist, after all “they” threw a rock at his “nephew” don’t ya know.
@ Jukeboxgrad
It really burns you that not everybody is falling over themselves feeling sorry for these rioters, doesn’t it?
Typical bleeding heart crap. You aren’t doing these people any favors by paternalistically patronizing them to assuage your own sense of guilt. But hey, why not I guess.
Nobody being responsible for anything seems to be the way of the world these days, so I’ll play along with you. Yes, they live in poverty while largely doing nothing of their own volition to change their situation.Yes, they exist in what seems like a permanent bubble of feelings of entitlement stemming from wrongs few of them ever personally had to experience. Yes, they make choices that perpetuate their cycle of poverty while being generously supported by the state.
But none of that is their fault. They’re blameless, because blaming them for anything offends Jukeboxgrad’s sense of propriety, right?
I think “troll” has become your new term for “someone who says something that offends me”.
I’m underwhelmed …
@M13:
So I should just look askance and say “tsk tsk, yes, they tossed a concrete block at my nephew’s fire truck and slashed his hoseline while he was in a burning building, but they’re misunderstood and they have been “oppressed” (WTFever …), so it’s OK if they blow off a little steam. If he gets hurt, well that’s just his bad luck. He should have ducked.”
Is that how it works?
One more time: I said you’re a troll because you said you’re a troll.
I am aware of one cutter cutting one hose. Is pointing out that you like to make shit up enough to get you to finally make good on your promise to disappear?
Still waiting.
You presented a video of one cutter cutting one hose. Your nephew happened to be in that exact building?
HL92 proves Conor’s point.
@ Jukeboxgrad
As I said, many hoses were slashed. Firefighters make excellent witnesses in court.
Interestingly, that’s exactly one more video than you’ve produced (i.e. zero …) of what happened inside that van – but you’re SURE about what happened in there because – well, why are you so sure about what happened in that van. .
Remind me how again? Do you have ESP? Did you see it via osmosis? 😀
Except that HL92 pretends to not be a conservative.
You said this:
I guess you meant to say ‘I can produce them but I won’t.’
@Anonne:
I do take them seriously. I’m just tired of them being held up as a banner which the cop haters of the world use to indict the system as a whole.
I’m also, despite being center-left, not all that fond of bleeding heart save the world types. They annoy me.
Both seem to have showed up in abundance on these Baltimore threads.
@ Jukeboxgrad
To you, anybody to the right of Bernie Sanders is a conservative. You’ll excuse me if I’m not interested.
Anonne thinks you are a conservative, and I pointed out correctly that you claim you are not. Two minutes later, you confirmed what I said. I’m sorry this annoys you.
It appears that one person cut one hose. Who else gratuitously turned that into plural, besides our friend HL92, based on no evidence whatsoever? Twitchy (“protesters”), People (“rioters”) and CNN (“rioters”). That darn liberal media.
But not even Breitbart, Twitchy or Rush is claiming that “many hoses were slashed.” We only hear that claim from the person who just described himself as “center-left.” Interesting how that works.
@Rafer Janders: Bravo!
HarvardLaw92:
I’ll wait patiently while you cite my comment where I made a claim about “what happened inside that van.” Once again, you are making shit up. That’s what you did when you said this:
You have a pattern of making worthless statements. But my favorite one is this:
@ Jukeboxgrad
I claim to be what I’ve always claimed to be – center-left. I’m sorry if I don’t pass your purity test, but frankly, as I said, I couldn’t give any less of a shit.
I have been told by my nephew, and others working with him, that multiple hoselines were slashed. I have no reason to doubt him. We’ve already established that slashing occurred, so what is it with you? Putting firefighters at risk is only meaningful if it happens at more than one location? Are you asserting that it’s OK since it was (in your mind) “only” one hoseline?
Now, back to that question you keep avoiding – You’re convinced that you know exactly what happened inside that van. On what evidence do you base this sense of certainty? You’ve certainly seen no video of what happened inside it – as none exists.
So we have me asserting that hoselines were slashed, and the video backs up my assertion that slashing occured. Jukeboxgrad asserts that aggressive driving broke Gray’s neck, but has no video to back up the assertion.
Note: anytime you want to admit that this is personal with you and involves nothing more than your sense of dislike for me, that’d be ok too.
But you still don’t know what happened inside that van. I’m betting this gets shipped out to Howard or Harford for trial. Three guesses as to which one of our viewpoints those jury pools have more in common with?
And that’s why there are this many media reports “that multiple hoselines were slashed:” zero.
Why is it that your “nephew, and others working with him” are giving this important information only to you, and to no one else? Maybe they think no one in the press would have any interest in hearing this important information?
One more time: I’ll wait patiently while you cite my comment where I made a claim about “what happened inside that van.”
Where did I do that?
@ Jukeboxgrad
So what is your theory about how Gray’s neck got broken? By all means, lay it out.
You said this:
I can’t find the part of your comment where you explain why you said I said something I never said.
@ Jukeboxgrad
So you are calling my nephew a liar?
Where’s your proof that it didn’t happen? The media has largely been falling over themselves sniffling about the poor oppressed rioters. I’m not surprised they don’t seem to care about reporting anything that discounts that narrative.
But, again, as we have seen, slashing DID occur. Are you prepared to state with certainty that only one hose line was slashed? If so, on what evidence do you base this?
We had a multi-car pileup near my town the other day. No media reported on it. Does that mean that it didn’t happen?
@ Jukeboxgrad
No, you seem certain that the police deliberately broke Gray’s neck / caused it to be broken. If that is inaccurate, then mea culpa, but as I requested, lay out your theory of the events in question. If you believe that mine is wrong, then supply your own. You’ve made it clear that you dislike both me and my proposed sequence of events, so supply your own. Do something besides whine about me being a meanie.
And remember, my guys are presumed innocent. I don’t have to prove anything. That’s Mosby’s job. All their legal teams have to do is put Gray on trial – which will be considerably easier once the cases get moved out of Baltimore City (as they almost certainly will).
You said this:
Your video shows one cutter cutting one hose. Your claim that “hoses were slashed all over the city” is fiction. You are a prolific bullshitter.
I’m calling you a liar. Here’s an example of just one lie you told recently:
Making shit up is a habit of yours.
I’m surprised that Harvard never taught you anything about the concept of proving a negative.
Yes, there is no such thing as a right-wing media that would be drooling over a credible report that “hoses were slashed all over the city.”
@ Jukeboxgrad
So, should we take the above as “I have no theory of the crime” or “I simply refuse to lay out a theory of the crime because I’m more interested in attacking someone I dislike”?
As I said, even if only one hose line is slashed, does that not bother you? Are you prepared to go on record stating that you believe it was wrong, and the person(s) who did it should be charged with attempted murder and belongs in prison?
Or are you one of those people who believes it was justified, and the person(s) who did it should not be charged. (I have actually heard this argument from people …)
Christ man, take a position that amounts to more than you disliking me. You’ve more than made that clear. Make a fricking argument …
Neither, but I understand that you just can’t stop trying to put words into someone else’s mouth.
I did. You said this:
You lied.
@HarvardLaw92:
You are disparaging an entire community of tens of thousands and a protest that was for over a week entirely non violent made up of thousands over the actions of a few hundred. You have repeatedly called 10s of thousands of people shiftless and lazy based on your personal prejudices. You have repeatedly characterized thousands of people as thugs based on the actions of 10% or less of their number.
It is crystal clear at this point that you have absolutely no interest in justice for Gray, for the protesters, for the people of West Baltimore, or for the police that are supposed to serve them. Your singular concern is vengeance for the act of a few people that may have put your nephew at risk. You seem to want that with such passion that you could not care less if anyone else receives anything approaching justice. You simply don’t care what happened to Gray or if the officers deliberately gave him a ‘rough ride’ that led to his death. You do care that getting the officers off will be a poke in the eye to the community that you have a visceral hate on for right now. That is the “justice” you want. I hope that after some reflection that you will realize that this has been a low point for you.
I see no reason to believe that he actually has a nephew. I also see no reason to believe that he has actually stepped foot in either Baltimore or Harvard Law School.
@HarvardLaw92:
You made a positive claim that fire hoses were slashed all over the city. As evidence you provided a youtube video of exactly one hose being slashed. If you were on the other side of this debate you would rightly point out that is a laughable attempt at proving the first assertion.
this is getting good.
@michael reynolds:
Nope, he’s just so mired in his own emotions that he is arguing like mr p.
Yes, but probably not more laughable than this:
Or this:
Anyway, laughter is appropriate. After all, he said that what he does is “a performance.”
@Grewgills:
No, I am making two points.
1) Rioters are thugs. They deserve no compassion, no consideration of their grievances and no quarter. Baltimore handled this sort of thing better in 1968. This latest episode was about SRB getting herself reelected and trying not to look bad on television.
2) West Baltimore, among many Baltimore neighborhoods, is populated by people who are far removed from slavery, far removed from redlining, far removed from segregation and far removed from Jim Crow. They enjoy one of the most generous assistance packages available in the country and live in a city with one of the highest spending per pupil rates in the country. Despite these facts, and despite hundreds of billions of dollars having been expended on their welfare over the last 50 or so years, they remain mired in poverty. They still have a 67% unwed birth rate. They still have a 60% single parent household rate. Parts of Baltimore have a 50% unemployment rate.
At what point does responsibility for those outcomes begin to attach to them? At what point do we accept that throwing money at the problem has done nothing but grow the problem? At what point do we dare demand that they accept some degree of responsibility for their own futures?
I have respect for anyone who works hard to better themselves, and there are many in those neighborhoods trying to do so. Them I’ll help in any way I can. What I do not respect is people justifying laziness by holding up the umbrella of racism and calling themselves oppressed.
Immigrants from other countries come here and face the same disadvantages, if not more, and yet they thrive. They aren’t burning down their own GD neighborhoods. It’s just one group. Why is that?
Blah, blah, blah. You said this:
You’re a liar.
@HarvardLaw92:
They again. One fuc/ing person allegedly threw a piece of concrete at a fire truck. Another one person cut a hose. Now they, which apparently means either all of West Baltimore or all of the protesters, tried to kill your nephew. The entire community are thugs. The entire protest are thugs intent on killing fire fighters.
Throwing a rock at a truck is attempted murder. Cuffing a man, sitting him on a narrow bench, failing to belt him in* is at worst reckless disregard in your world. The latter is ok though because… thug and drugs.
Jesus man, can logic reach anywhere inside your head at this point?
@HarvardLaw92:
On point one, you have not until this post distinguished between residents of WB, protesters (the vast majority of whom are and were peaceful), and the rioters. You have had nothing but insults to cast in their direction.
*in direct breach of policy because it can end in seriously injured or dead people
@Grewgills:
It’s many things. I’m enraged about the attacks on firefighters. No argument there. Given the opportunity, I’d cheerfully throw the switch myself. The fact that the people responsible for this will likely never see the inside of a cell is beyond comprehension.
I’ve also been getting progressively more and more annoyed of late about the direction of the discussion around here. Far left wingers, especially the smug paternalistic variety, annoy me as much, if not more, than far right wingers. Cop haters positively infuriate me. Consider this sort of my way of flipping them off.
My position on that one is call a Crip when your house is being robbed – see how that one works out for you. These people do a job that none of us would do – and face things that no one should see – on a daily basis. They deserve more than this baying for their blood mentality that is oozing up from the ground.
I can tell you this much – convicting all six of these officers won’t change a single thing about West Baltimore. It’s beyond fixing at this point.
@HarvardLaw92:
Oh ffs. Bye already.
@Grewgills:
Not allegedly. https /www youtube com/watch?v=9G6bJp53L2g
Not according to Marilyn Mosby …
@PT:
Nah, I think I’ll stick around and voice a more dissenting opinion than I have in the past from now on. This mutual masturbation society needs a little shaking up.
Until the next time you say this:
We’ve seen this movie before.
@HarvardLaw92:
That’s fine my man. But next time your opening move shouldn’t be announcing your exit. It opens you up for deserved ridicule. And then there’s the hateful racist stuff. But by all means … Dissent.
@PT:
I honestly wouldn’t have returned, but this:
pissed me off enough to come back. I still think it’s a losing proposition and this place is unavoidably an echo chamber at this point, but at least it might be amusing.
Again, since when is making accurate, but uncomfortable, assertions racist? Know what I think is racist? The paternalistic attitude towards these people displayed by many on here which presumes that they have to be helped because they’re incapable of doing anything for themselves.
I’m pointing to 50 years of failed policies, dramatically failed policies, and saying “the emperor has no clothes”. It’s time to try something else. The folks invested in the emperor’s garments don’t like that. They’d rather buy him more invisible cloaks so they can congratulate themselves on their magnanimity and feel swell.
The problem is that he’s still naked …
@HarvardLaw92: Re: all your contributions on this thread:
I grew up In Israel. Between the time I turned 18 and the time I turned 28 and emigrated ,the following things happened, in rough chronological order:
* A youth hostel I was staying at was hit by a rocket shot from Lebanon.
* My best friend from junior high was killed in a bus bomb.
* So did the brother of an ex-girlfriend
* And a brother of another close friend
* My parents house was hit by another rocket, which would have killed my sister if she was not out working.
* My brother got hit by a bullet that ricocheted off his helmet in Gaza.
This doesn’t make me unique in any way: in fact, as Israelis go, I am lucky, having lost no close family or friends.
Doe this mean that, like my fellow Israelis, I should have voted for Bibi and his “kill the brutes” coalition partners?
If not, why not?
@HarvardLaw92:
No quarter? Seriously, you are basically advocating for policing much more brutal than the American army did in Iraq- or the Israeli army in Palestine?
I think I’ll just leave The Case for Reparations here.
I was going to quote the last bit about how the subprime financing crisis hit Baltimore pretty bad due to how they marketed subprime loans to black people (even if they would qualify for prime!), but I’ll not bother and link the whole thing
After reading this thread, fairly certain either none of you are lawyers, or you’re all horrible lawyers.
@humanoid.panda:
No, I am saying that the proper response to a riot is not to stand back and let it happen. The proper response is to bring it to an end as quickly as possible and as forcefully as necessary. That was not done until it was far too late, primarily IMO because Baltimore’s mayor was more worried about how she’d look on TV than she was with doing her job.
When you have an active riot and you dodge calls from the governor for 2 1/2 hours, as she did, you are playing politics. That was inexcusable.
That’s hilarious, because when you “returned” (shortly after saying “I’m out of here”) you proceeded to post roughly 60 comments that neglected to reference the comment that supposedly “pissed [you] off enough to come back.” It pissed you off so much that you forgot to say anything about it.
Another lie from a serial liar.
@ Jukeboxgrad
Your little tiff with me is getting boring. You don’t like me. I assure you the feeling is mutual. Move on …
I suppose The Baltimore Sun and Maryland’s governor are lying now as well?
@Tillman:
Caveat emptor.
The Baltimore Sun did not make a claim. The Republican governor made a claim, and his claim is unsupported, and even his claim is not a claim that the mayor was ‘dodging’ his calls.
But surely you also heard this from your nephew, right?
You’re confused. The one who promised to leave is you.
@ Jukeboxgrad
So we can chalk that one as “Jukeboxgrad believes that the Governor of Maryland is a liar too”.
Is that how it works? Anybody who disagrees with you or says something that you dislike is a liar? I imagine you must spend a great deal of time attacking people.
Or perhaps that’s why you spend so much time here – you like echo chambers.
I know – maybe she was in the bathroom for 2 hours! Maybe none of aides told her that the governor was calling – repeatedly. I mean, it’s just the governor, right? Nothing important … 😀
You’re a piece of work …
@n Jukeboxgrad
Consider that rescinded. At this point I’ll cheerfully stick around just to be a personal pain in your ass and see how long you can keep up this tantrum.
Oh, and just for kicks – you know who’s responsible for people getting crappy mortgages? The nimrods who signed them. Feel free to explode.
The liar is you, because the claim he made is not the claim you made. You also need to explain why you said “the Baltimore Sun” supports your claim. They don’t. They only reported what the governor said.
Earlier you said this:
If it’s plausible that a man wearing handcuffs figured out how to break his own neck, then it’s also plausible that “none of aides told her that the governor was calling.”
@HarvardLaw92:
If this is really you then I’m disappointed. When I was in my 20’s my wife was pistol-whipped by a black man in an attempted rape. I went a bit ape shit for an hour or two but then I got a grip. And I was a 25 year-old waiter not a middle-aged lawyer. And I didn’t see it on TV, or hear about it later, I heard her scream and saw the blood.
Is this really the worst sh!t that’s happened to you?
This is an overreaction on your part and I suspect you’ll be sorry for it when you pause and reflect. Because I have to tell you, you are subverting your own case. You’re denigrating people who’ve generally experienced far, far more trauma and fear in their lives than you have in this unfortunate incident. You’re coming off like a sheltered rich kid who never took a fist in the teeth before, while sneering at people with a tenth of your resources and ten times your bad breaks.
You’re not making sense, you’re not arguing rationally, you sound fwcking drunk. Not only are you irrational, you’re flailing, you’re missing facts, you’re making logic errors and having holes poked in you by people you’d normally handle. You’re coming off weak.
Now I’m a simpleton and a non lawyer so I could use some help here.
Is Harvardlaw92 really saying that he believes that Gray intentionally injured himself in an incredibly painful and fatal manner? IF so could someone explain to me why someone would do such a thing when they weren’t high out of their mind on pcp?
Also is Harvardlaw92 really advocating that we should not care because Gray had a prior criminal record? That we should wait till the police kill an upstanding member of society before doing anything?
It’s not complicated. He’s a troll. One way we know is that he said so.
Interesting. Most people would think that when she “did not return his repeated phone calls for more than two hours”, she had a reason.
So the Baltimore Sun is in the business of repeating unsubstantiated rumors? Earlier you were holding media coverage up as a surety. Now you are asserting that it can’t be relied on. Which is it?
Because his head and his body were restrained and completely immobile, right? As you have admitted, you have no video of what happened, so it’s possible that he slammed his own head against something in a fit of rage.
I’d be more likely to believe SRB if she wasn’t also refusing to respond to the governor’s assertion. Could that be because she knows she’d get thrown under the bus if she tried to lie?
@Matt:
No, he is saying that it is POSSIBLE that Gray intentionally injured himself, and that possibility introduces reasonable doubt if you can sell it to a jury. Remember, Mosby has to prove her case. All the defense team has to do is muddy the water and put Gray on trial. This is especially relevant given the overwhelming likelihood that the cases will be moved to another county for trial. Helpful hint – those counties are quite different demographically from Baltimore City.
No, he isn’t. He’s saying that the victim wasn’t a choirboy, and at least one person on the jury is likely to care about that. Maryland requires unanimous verdicts by constitutional mandate unless waived by the defendant (which none of them will be dumb enough to do), and you only need one.