Thursday’s Forum
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FILED UNDER: Open Forum
OTB relies on its readers to support it. Please consider helping by becoming a monthly contributor through Patreon or making a one-time contribution via PayPal. Thanks for your consideration.
Re 2024 election, here is an easy to understand and follow piece on some surprising findings in the Catalist data.
“WaPo Gift”
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Hegseth Starts Evangelical Prayer Services at Pentagon with His Tennessee Church Pastor
Now, private prayer groups and Bible studies have always been around using a lunch time conference room and people’s own time. And I have no problem with that.
However, I do have a problem with the agency head (Hegseth) sponsoring the event and using taxpayer resources to propagate the services.
The response should be this: Start your own religious meeting. Preferably a non Christian one and dare to be discriminated against. Perhaps one of the Norse pagan worshipers (yes, there are those). Go see Emblems of Belief for possibilities.
Hey, maybe Satanic Temple can get into the act.
Or invite Bishop Marian Budde of the National Cathedral to speak.
But don’t whine.
The response should not be whining.
@Scott:
Well, at least we know Hegseth is a “Christian.” I’m so relieved.
@Scott:
Narrator: you will be discriminated against and lose the dare.
All religions are equal, but some are more equal than others.
I would modify the following
As shown during his shameful sandbagging of South Africa’s president with false photographs of “white genocide,” Trump too readily “assimilates” whatever his malignant “whisperers” set in front of him.
Never one to look to far beyond his own visceral predilections and bigotry, Trump is putty in the hands of those who understand his weaknesses. Trump’s massive ego allows him to think he is in control, and that’s how his handlers work it.
As noted by multiple sources, there is no “white genocide” nor state policy of such in South Africa. But this media construct of the Trump Administration, serves to justify the increasingly racist bent of its politically charged policies, and claims of “victimhood.”
@DK: There are military chaplains of all major religions.
(And everyone see how yesterday’s theological discussion is relevant?)
@DK: My guess was that losing the dare is the point. What that does beyond preaching to the (non-establishmentarian this time) choir is beyond me, tho. Maybe this is just another “something must be done, this is something, therefore, it must be done” exercise. Laissez led bon temps roullez.
Per ABC News, the Supreme Court has rejected Oklahoma’s effort to start a taxpayer-funded religious charter school.
The vote was 4-4. Amy Coney Barrett recused herself.
MAGA Murder Bill squeaked by on the strength of 1 missing Dem vote, so Gerry Connolly’s cancer is going to claim him and thousands of poor people.
From the Guardian via Atrios:
Luigi Mangione should and will be convicted and punished for the murder of UHC CEO Brian Thompson. But Thompson murdered more people than Mangione.
More on Trump’s debacle with Ramaphosa:
http://www.npr.org/2025/05/22/nx-s1-5406758/shock-and-anger-in-south-africa-after-oval-office-ambush
@ptfe:
Geriatric Dems that can be replaced by Dem governors should start resigning immediately. What Pelosi and Connolly did is really unforgivable. Schakowsky should lead the way and tell Pritzger to choose Kat Abughazaleh and then set the election out as far as possible.
Did that loon Massie vote against it?
@charontwo: That lines up with some anecdotes we were hearing, such as gains in urban areas. I can’t say I know why that happened, though.
I have one thought, but no real sense of how solid it might be. It seems to me that Harris did well where she campaigned, and not so well where she didn’t campaign.
@ptfe:
The loss of Gerry Connolly wasn’t the difference. The republicans had more votes, if needed–five republicans didn’t vote in favor of the bill, and some number of them surely would have, if they were needed.
And let this be a reminder that there are no reasonable republicans. Lawler, Fitzpatrick, and Bacon all voted for it.
@ptfe: it’s like the GOP wants us all stupid and short-lived, isn’t it?
I gotta wonder what stories Mike Johnson and all the other Professional Christians in politics tell themselves to rationalize their votes to do so much harm to the least among us. Cuz how could these votes not put a true believer on the fast track to hell?
@Eusebio: Truly a Murder Budget, and I have no illusions that they wouldn’t have approved it anyway.
I believe a couple of those 5 were a hard “no” thanks to the obvious deficit absurdity (not because of the murder, though), so the negotiations would have simply gone on another hour or two while the remainder figured out which one would see the least blowback for killing their poorest constituents.
@Beth: Massie and Davidson voted “Nay.” Gabarino and Schweikert “Not Voting” (slept in???), and Harris as “Present.” Per Office of the Clerk.
@just nutha: Per reporting in Politico, yes, both Gabarino and Schweikert missed the vote because they dozed off/fell asleep and the vote closed before they were able to register their votes. They both would have voted for it, so no need to slag on Connolly for inopportunely dying.
@becca: “I gotta wonder what stories Mike Johnson and all the other Professional Christians in politics tell themselves to rationalize their votes to do so much harm to the least among us.”
You misspelled ‘Performative Christians’.
Knock knock.
Who’s there?
Santa #2
@charontwo: Shorter explaination. Republicans message in mediums common folk consume nowadays. Democrats message where common folk are not.
The answer: Challenge GOP messaging on the media platforms where common folk consume entertainment.
Pro tip: This means—reduced messaging footprint on the FNYT, WSJ, CNN, MSNBC, CBS, ABC, NBC, etc
Having nothing better to do, I looked up our three Democrat notice victims. Wikipedia discussion suggests that all three knew they had cancer and ran for office anyway (my conclusion, disagree if you want). It’s not just “Notorious RBG,” and Democrats are doing this to themselves. SMH!
@Jen: Is it okay if I slag on him for running again knowing that he was sick and 75 years old? (FTR, my initial comment made no reference to Connolly at all.)
@Jim X 32: And expanded message footprint where? Giving only half of a solution is no solution at all. Let alone a “pro tip.”
But thanks for playing.
@just nutha: He is addressing social media, in its various forms. He has talked about this before. I presume this is why he is so abbreviated this time.
I will say that I personally saw a LOT of Harris ads on YouTube. I think there are a lot of Dems out there, though, that are still kind of stuck in the cable/broadcast print mindset.
R’s do much better with supporting and advancing influencers, who appear as independent voices (but aren’t, they get funds from a deep infrastructure). Democrats don’t have much at all like this. I think this is probably because Big Money is mostly lined up in support of Republicans.
@Jim X 32: NYT’s Nick Kristof had good advice in a column (gift) yesterday. He recommends three ways to undermine authoritarians that he feels have been tried and work. Long story greatly shortened:
– “mockery and humor — preferably salacious”
– Don’t stress an abstract like democracy, focus on the “leaders’ corruption, hypocrisy and economic mismanagement.”
– Don’t focus on the sea of oppression, focus on individual stories.
Trump offers bounteous opportunities for all three.
FTFNYT selects “NYT Picks” comments to highlight. One of theirs (not popular with readers) says, “Excellent strategy! Keep it off social media. To engage make people face each other again.” WRONG! The GOPs have proven social media works politically. Part of the success is that it’s largely out of sight and therefore hard to counter. Dems can make attacks more over the top than they’re comfortable with in the MSM. And it’s a way to get around the MSM’s Republican bias.
ETA – What @Jay L Gischer: said. And Jay’s right, the Kochtopus (for lack of a more up to date term) is financing and organizing their ostensibly grass roots online presence. Surely an easier lift financially for Dems than starting an anti-FOX. (Which given liberal psychology wouldn’t work anyway.)
@Fortune:
And yet, we never hear of the SECDEF holding a “salat” (Muslim), or “puja” (Hindu) prayer services at the Pentagon.
Face it. This event is just another “in-your-face” expression of rightwing jingoist nationalism hiding behind The Cross, and as much a departure from the intent of Christ as setting up money-lender tables in the temple —– Which by the way, modern pop-Christians are quite prolific in replicating in pursuit of Christianity Inc., a “Fortune 500 company.”
So, at this Pentagon prayer service, do you think they’re praying for the end of war, nuclear disarmament, beating swords into plowshares, affirming anti biochem weapons/ landmine treaties, stopping weapons transfers to ethnic-cleansing Israel, affirming support for Ukraine against ethnic cleansing Russia, welcoming refugees and downtrodden through our borders, eliminating toxic white supremacy and fascism from its own corridors, promoting healthcare access similar to their own to the public they defend? Because if so, then I say carry on. If not, then come off their “holy warrior” affectation.
Pete Hegseth’s Tattoos and the Crusading Obsession of the Far Right
@Jay L Gischer: Social media covers a lot of territory. Perhaps further focus would be desirable. It’s also possible that this issue is a “can’t sell what people aren’t in the market for,” but I can’t argue that either way. I never cared for the “Jesus, the Master Salesman” sermons I heard growing up, either, though.
@gVOR10:
I favor increasing and unremitting levels of mockery directed at Trump, simply because it makes him crazy, or certainly crazier than he already is.
Of course, there’s always danger in driving Trump off the deep end.
I just donated a unit of blood a few minutes ago. I’ve done this several times and know how it goes and what to expect. And yet this time it hit me just how much blood comes out.
I tried to imagine what kind of a wound would bleed that much, or how ba a hemorrhage would have to be.
And yet, I just walked out a few minutes later feeling completely normal.
Trivia: the first blood banks stored blood in glass bottles.
@just nutha: The “slag on Connolly” reference was to the general current zeitgeist, which seems to be pointing to this fact, unduly in my opinion–it was meant to be a broad point, which I should have made clear.
@Jay L Gischer: Her campaign should have made the Joe Rogan podcast happen. It didn’t because neither Rogan nor Harris was willing to travel to the other.
I don’t like that Joe Rogan is simultaneously a very dumb and gullible man and amazingly influential, but that’s the world we live in.
@Barry: it’s what we called people who worked in the Gospel or Contemporary Christian music industry (Nashville) who didn’t actually practice what they preached. Not all, but more than a few.
@CSK: It makes your side look worse though.
@Fortune:
lol, dork.
@Beth: Great example of how mockery ends up making your side look worse.
@Fortune:
No offense, but you playing respectability politics feels like “crocodile tears.” You’ve made enough comments in the past to suggest to suggest that you’re looking for any opportunity to find division so you don’t have to agree with people who hold opposing viewpoints*.
For example just a few weeks ago you stated something along the lines of “I might not agree with Trump’s policies, but if I show up to a public demonstration I’m supporting the type of ‘terrorists’ who burn down Tesla showrooms.”
At the time I chose to bite my tongue and not comment. But the reduction of people who oppose Trump to people vandalize Tesla dealerships “makes your side look worse.”
Adopting… *checks notes* Pam Bondi and Elon Musk’s… over the top rhetoric about vandals “makes your side look worse.”
Unless, of course, you agree that some attempts at property damage via vandalism constitutes “terrorism.” Of course. we can’t tell because you rarely elucidate your comments. Which makes your side look worse.
Either way, the type of moralizing you’re attempting would be far more meaningful if you applied those rules to your own posting.
Or at least recognize how it these types of comments by an embarrassed Republican who supports a lot of Trump’s policies, but just doesn’t like Trump (but not enough to actually publicly say that unless pushed), well… “make your side look worse.”
BTW, still looking forward to you explaining how my posts from last Friday were disingenuous. Just a reminder, I answered your “prove it” question in good faith…. You have yet to answer mine. Which, btw, makes your side… I mean *you* “look worse.”
Per ABC News, the Trump administration has barred Harvard from enrolling foreign students.
http://www.abcnews.go.com/Politics/trump-administration-bars-harvard-enrolling-international-students/story?id=122084417
@CSK:
I just saw that, and my first thought was – by what authority can the president do this? A blanket denial of international students from attending a private university?
Can someone help me understand, please?
@restless:
I don’t get it, either, but apparently Noem is revoking their visas, on the grounds that they’re anti-American and anti-Semitic.
@Matt Bernius: Yeah, I know, I comment too much, not enough, too much detail, not enough, too many links, wrong subjects (on an open thread). I think I posted ten times last Friday explaining my position on affirmative action while you put words in my mouth, and then someone or other complained I didn’t explain myself. I liked the time recently you flat-out said I should criticize Trump more. It stripped away all the “you comment wrong” nonsense.
I come to Outside the Beltway regularly. I know what the left is like. I thought CSK should know the constant escalation from the left against Trump is making the left look worse, not Trump. Leftists can decide what they want to do with the observation.
@Fortune:
I’m sure you quite enjoyed reproving me.
@restless:
I’m pretty sure it boils down to “because fuck you, that’s why.”
Also, it doesn’t matter to these people one whit whether they have the legal authority to do something. They are already in open defiance of courts all the way up to SCOTUS, they have rendered entirely lawful immigrants to shithole prisons in foreign countries with no consequences, they’re still illegally dismantling federal institutions, what’s to stop them from squashing Harvard’s enrollment of foreign students?
@Fortune:
Your repeated retreat to victimhood when asked to “prove it” (your words to me) makes you “look worse.”
Your repeated “you put words in my mouth” while DOING THAT EXACT SAME THING TO OTHER PEOPLE (including me) makes you “look worse.”
That’s cool. Through interactions with you the rest of us keep learning what the online “right is like.”
Guess what… “you make your side look worse.”
@Matt Bernius: I probably do, but not on a national scale, over a decade, in front of the whole voting public.
@Fortune:
I was honestly going to reply with a snarky response. But the fact you think that was witty or incisive, or something biting or true… well, that is worse than anything I can come up with.
@Matt Bernius: is our resident minder referring to trump in that retort? He sure makes his side look whackadoodle on a daily basis.
@just nutha: Catchy phrase—but I don’t think anyone in need of a solution thinks that understanding half the problem is equal to understanding none of the problem.
And-if you are common folk—or common folk adjacent—you would know what that popular forms a media are today. If you don’t—you aren’t common folk.
@Jen: I’ll agree that there’s no point on slagging on Connolly about dying before the vote. Or on the 2 others who died in office since January, either. But we gotta blame someone; might as well be a guy who can’t fight back.
Otherwise, the blame’s on us. Can’t have that.
@Fortune:
Whatever, weirdo.
@becca:
Perhaps he’s pulling some 3-d chess with that. I don’t want to put words into his mouth but given his general anti-anti-Trump impact, I think he might be saying:
But me saying that would be putting words in his mouth. And that would just be another example of me “making [my side] look worse.”
I hope he has a fainting couch* nearby.
* Man, it’s like Susan Collins and Ms. Lindsey Graham had a test-tube baby.
Dang it… I “made [my] side look worse” again.
@Jim X 32: Okay. I’ll breathlessly wait for the common folk “who know” to take over. I’m glad you guys got this. Go in peace.
The Hegseth thing reminds of when the Air Force used to have a lot of “voluntary” prayer meetings and Bible studies on some bases and at the academy. You didnt really have to go but if you didnt your promotion chances dropped.
Steve
@Jen:
My anger at Connelly in particular is two-fold. His absolutely unforgivable problem was going along with Pelosi to block AOC from being the ranking member of the Oversight Committee. He 100% knew he was too old and too sick for that job. If he didn’t want to retire then, fine, it’s stupid, but fine.
Broadly speaking, so many of the Dems in the government are simply too old. They know they are too old. They are dropping dead in office. Maybe it wouldn’t be so bad if they were from IL or CA, but TX and VA? that’s a screw job there and they KNOW IT. If they can’t look at how bad RBG hanging on till she died in the robes screwed everyone then they are idiots and lost. They need to start strategically retiring. Pick a younger person that they think would do a good job, get their governor (where applicable) to appoint that younger person to the job. Then stick around as like a special chief of staff to teach the younger person the ropes. Let them start out as the incumbent instead of free for all primary.
@Matt Bernius:
Daaaaaaaaammnnn. I’m pissed I didn’t come up with that one.
@restless:
I doubt “authority to do” had much to do with it. Trump, as POTUS, can harass with legal bills endlessly, as his side is now being paid by the taxpayer. I would bet our famously litigious Trump is feeling like a little kid with a new toy. He doesn’t have to care if he wins or loses any case anymore.
@CSK:
Shorter @Fortune: Lie back and enjoy it. All that screaming for help just gets the rapist more excited.
@Michael Reynolds: “It makes your side look worse though” is shorter, and means something different.
@CSK:
So they’re claiming that every single international student attending Harvard is antisemitic. Really?
Is it just so confusing to me – we need to make sure that antisemitism is eradicated but racism and sexism and ableism are OK. Do I have that right?
I guess I always thought the DEI meant that you were discouraging antisemitism (and sexism and racism and ableism, etc.) But DEI is bad.
Did we go through some weird quantum universe folding and end up in an Orwellian 1984?
@Mikey:
You’re right, nothing seems to be stopping them.
Though, much as I disagree with it, I can see how mismanaging the federal government could fall under the purview of the executive branch. It is, after all, the job of the office of president to oversee how the government functions. And the job of Congress to push back (yeah, right)
But Harvard (and Columbia and all of the other universities) are either private or state run. Why does the federal government have any say in their policies?
It seems to me that if the federal government has issues with private and state entities, they need to use the court system, and show that there is a law being violated. These targeted attacks seem more like acts of attainment, which I thought was specifically called out in the constitution as illegal?
@CSK: @restless: Anyone from a foreign country needs a reason to be in the US legally. Diplomats, students, workers, etc.
Harvard, like many colleges and universities, participates in the student and exchange visitors program. This is what allows them to temporarily host students from abroad. What Noem has done is rescind their certification.
@restless:
More than a quarter (6800) of Harvard students, mostly graduate students, are from other countries. Noem says Harvard has 72 hours to produce all their records, including audio and video.
@restless:
Not antisemitism. The deplorables are fine with that. What they object to is opposing the Bibi government (fellow fascists), or any support or advocacy of Palestinians (current stand-ins for Islamist terrorism).
Calling it antisemitism makes it seem respectable.
@Gustopher: I thought Harris was willing to travel (I think she was going to be in Texas anyway), but couldn’t give Rogan 3 hours of her time like he wanted, and he refused to accept a 1-hour interview?
@Beth: Very wise advice, and gets around the fear of losing institutional memory. Someone said recently that it seems like too many Dem politicians have forgotten that their job is public service, not a reward for loyalty or longevity.
@dazedandconfused:
Yeah, he’s doing it just because he wants to.
But what legal authority is he claiming, that gives him the right to do it?
I don’t know why this issue suddenly just felt like it was over the top, when he’s basically ignoring the actual constraints on his job – habeas corpus, due process, separation of powers, basic economic theory, etc., etc., etc.…
Thanks, Jen, for that extra info. Still not sure how the federal government has the authority to wholesale with hold said certification without due process, though.
@Beth: Sticking around well past one’s prime years is a huge problem, and it’s been that way for a long time. Congressman Bill Emerson (R-MO) was dying of I think lung cancer and didn’t step down, in part because his district was a swing district with a number of strong Republican candidates in it. The thinking at the time was if he stepped down, there’d be a blood bath of a primary, draining resources, and the Democrats would likely win the seat–it was less risky to stay in office, pass away, and have a special election (the whole thing turned out to be more complicated than expected). His widow, Joann Emerson, served from 1996 to 2013, thus holding the seat for Republicans.
To be clear, I’m not condoning this sort of thing, but when it comes to power and holding a seat, I do understand what’s going on.
@restless:
The student and exchange visitor program is authorized and managed by US Immigration and Customs Enforcement.
ETA: I’m not sure how colleges and universities apply, and if there’s any appeals process, that’s probably going to be key.
@Matt Bernius:
You are talking about a person who takes umbrage when we respond to the plain meaning of their written words, yet claims we are putting words in their mouth if we respond based on what we think they meant.
Whichever way one wants to interpret that pattern, it ain’t good. This is a person who, not long ago, claimed to be instructing us.
@steve: Never underestimate the desirability of networking. Significant advancement comes from showing yourself to be what others are looking for. Especially when you’re not.
@restless:
I made a slight edit for you. Hope it helps.
ETA: “Did we go through some weird quantum universe folding and end up in an Orwellian 1984?”
Yes. Except it’s Bizarro World, not an Orwellian 1984.
@CSK: Well, lets all acknowledge that a non-insignificant part of the Harvard alumni base probably voted for Trump, for the tax cuts and deserve some”Find Out” energy as well.
If playing the long game, us small folk need Trump to make enemies in high places. Screwing with Harvard presents that opportunity. Sucks for the kids but collateral damage is unavoidable. These people want a confrontation or complete prostration of anyone outside the cult.
@Just nutha ignint cracker:
Don’t be so sure. I think a tenet of oligarchical socialism was to waste labor in unproductive economic activities, in order to keep the middle class’s (aka outer party) living standards low*.
Isn’t that just what the GQP’s omnibus reconciliation bill and the trade wars supposed to achieve?
Sure, some big corporations will be hurt in the process, but that’s what bailouts are for.
*Something along these lines is given as an explanation for the perpetual state of war in Goldstein’s book.
@Jim X 32: Makes enemies among the elites and mostly directly hurts wealthy people from foreign countries, and doesn’t even shove them into gulags in tinpot dictatorships abroad.
Least evil thing they’ve done today. It’s not good, but it’s not going to destroy many people’s lives, and has a good chance of angering people with lots of money.
How many members of the Saudi Royal family are at Harvard or wanted to be? Children of wealthy foreign businessmen?
How many wealthy Americans wanted their kids to form connections to those people at Harvard? The networking is what makes Harvard so valuable, not the education.
@Fortune: Whatever you say, Captain Clown.
@Kathy: I don’t think the type of low-yield grift nation that Trump seeks to run can be compared to the sort of despotic kleptocracy Stalin was running. But if that model brings you more comfort, don’t let me stop you.
One of my parents was a chaplain in the Air National Guard.
Under the grossly incompetent Hegseth, they’d probably’ve been kicked out as a DEI hire, fired by drunk text no less.
@Fortune: Yeah, no. When the rich old man next door who speeds dangerously down the street, calls the cops on everyone who isn’t white, and kicks puppies comes sprinting out of his house not wearing pants and screaming nonsense that would embarrass the whole family to have to deal with at dinner, “point and laugh” looks a lot better than “offer a quick fluff.”
But you do you, Fortune.