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Whom to Blame? The Voters or the System? (The Previous Subject Continued)

Sure, los dos, but one is more responsible for what we get than the other.

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Comments

Oh, I have so many things to say to add to and amplify James’ post. It is hard to know where to start. Let me state from the top that I agree with his basic thesis: yes, it is fair to make a judgment about the morality of supporting Trump and his co-partisans, but the most important variable to explain the government we get out of our elections is structure, not the voters. As long as we pretend the main issue is just “the voters” and not the structures in which we vote, we will continue to have dumb micro-level arguments about messaging and candidate quality alone.

Yes, candidate quality matters. And sure, campaigns matter. Neither matters anywhere near as much as people think (more on that in a future post).

Let me be clear: I am not absolving individual voters for their moral choices. But if the goal is to find where the core problems are, blaming “the voters” or “Americans” requires a fair assessment of whether or not the system is measuring what “the voters” want.

It doesn’t.

The reason for this is simple: our structures do not purely translate voter preference into government formation. Instead, our structures filter voter preference through a Rube Goldberg machine of state boundaries, single-seat districts, primaries, and the Electoral College, to name just the basics.

We do not live in a system that does a good job of translating votes into government. We have a system that privileges some voters over others, and sidelines many.

By the way, this does not matter due to some intellectual exercise, or the personal academic hobby horse that I have been riding for many years now. It all boils down to how to fix the obvious problems we face.

Let me note something that I think gets lost at times: better structures guarantee nothing. I think sometimes readers think when I argue for better democratic feedback loops that I am promising better politicians and superior policy outcomes. This is not what I, and others in the pro-reform community, are offering.

I am offering the notion that voters would have real choices that better reflected the actual preferences and interests that they have. I am offering the notion that each voter would actually count equally to others. I am offering the notion that all elections would be competitive in ways they simply are not now. I want a system that does, in fact, reflect sentiment and so that then, yes, we can blame the voters far more clearly for their choices.

I want a system that:

  • Treats voters as equals.
  • That has actual competition for votes.
  • That provides voters with more than two real choices at the polls each election.
  • That has a means of containing its extremes into smaller, less dangerous parties
  • Wherein it is clearer which party to blame or reward.
  • That allows majorities to rule, not minorities.

We have none of these things in the US in any universally meaningful way.

If we look globally, we can find systems that do this a lot better. Nothing is perfect, but we continue to insist that our giant phone-in-a-bag is just as good as the latest iPhone. Indeed, we refuse to even look at the new iPhone because of giant phone-in-a-bag exceptionalism.

Look, if a majority of a country really wants fascism, no rules are going to stop a fascist takeover (or insert your extreme ideology of choice). Our problem is not that a majority of the population actually wants MAGA. Our problem is that it is possible for MAGA to control one of two parties.

And yes, in a perfect world MAGA should be enough to get people to flee the GOP en masse. We can ignore the social science of partisanship all we like, but it doesn’t change empirically observable mass behavior. It is hard to get people to change the party they vote for. This is science, like it or not. We can also ignore the fact that most voters don’t pay that much attention to the news and therefore fall back on partisan identification. That, too, is science, like it or not.

Dare I say it?

Trust the science.

And even on a personal level, most readers know this is all true. Most of the people reading this who are mad at people who will vote for Paxton (or pick your lesser poison) would have voted for Platner in Maine if the choice were he or Collins, for the same basic logic as many Texas GOPers will deploy for bubbling in the oval by Paxton’s name.

Here’s the core question: Will the actual will of “the voters” or “Americans” be demonstrated by the outcome of November’s elections?

The bottom-line answer is no. The filters in place will dilute the actual majority sentiment about our government at the moment.

That there is a chance that Dems could control both chambers is a reflection of how deep anti-Trump/anti-Republican sentiment is. But if we had truly competitive elections that really reflected public preferences, we would not be worried about the outcome; it would be clearly pro-Dem and anti-Rep.

And yet, it is within the realm of the possible that Ds will not get control of the Senate despite the obvious public dissatisfaction with the Rs.

So, if the Democrats fail to control the Senate, this will not be because majority sentiment in the country wants that outcome. It will be because of the way we have structured Senate elections. I get it: you can blame the Republican voters in those states for the outcome. That’s fair; but you cannot blame “the voters” writ large, nor can you blame “America.”

Put another way: sure, blame people for voting for Rs for doing so, but blame the system for the overall outcomes that we get.

As James noted in his post, how many voters in the US this November have zero real influence in the outcome? Put another way, to what degree will the coming November election be an actual assessment of what “the voters” or “Americans” want? We are sliced and diced in such a way that we are not going to get that kind of assessment.

Now, does that take people who vote Republican off the hook morally? No. But it also does not change the fact that the outcome is more determined by structure than by a real test of national preferences.

Heck, two-thirds of the Senate aren’t even up for election.

The core of all of this is what I have been arguing for years: we do not get, in any election cycle, a true representation of “the voters” or of “Americans.” I wish we did, and then we could make broader and clearer assertions of blame.

This is not to say that a better system guarantees a better government, but it does increase the odds.

We need deep and significant reform so that we can, in fact, find out what the voters want in a way that treats all voters equally.

And all of this dovetails with my Liberal Currents piece, which talks about clear flaws in our checks-and-balances system and the ongoing problem of multiple sources of democratic legitimacy with a system of separated powers (made worse by the differences between House and Senate terms, and the fact that only one-third of the Senate is elected in a given cycle).

To conclude: again, I am not saying that individual voters don’t have moral culpability for their votes. But I am simply noting that by no metric does 50%+1 of the public actually want what we’ve got, and yet we have it. If that is a true statement, and I am prepared to defend it, then where is the real blame? Is it “the voters” or is it the structure of the system?

The answer to the question leads us to where we need to go to fix things. If it is just “the voters,” then we can spend our time trying to fix messaging, campaigns, and candidates. If it is the structure, then pro-democracy politicians and citizens better be working on a serious set of reforms.

Final note: if Democrats do really well next month, that does not prove that everything is fixed or that Talarico (or name your example) is The Answer for Democrats going forward.

59 responses to “Whom to Blame? The Voters or the System? (The Previous Subject Continued)”

  1. We need deep and significant reform so that we can, in fact, find out what the voters want in a way that treats all voters equally.

    Significant reform is off the table. There are at least 13 states that will oppose any significant reform, because it is not in their perceived interest. In my mind, we have made “significant” changes to the Constitution twice: once with the Civil War amendments, and once with direct election of US Senators. (Everything else has just been futzing around the edges.) The first required a bloody war. The second required getting very close to enough states to call a constitutional convention.

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    1. @Michael Cain: As long as we insist that change is impossible, it will continue to be impossible.

      There are things that a Democratic trifecta could do if they win in 2028. Those changes (DC statehood, expanding the Court, any number of voting-rights actions) could set the stage for deeper change later.

      A journey if a thousand miles starts with a single step.

      I will confess to having lost patience with assertions that change is impossible.

      Or, to your point, we are going to have to have a terrible crisis to get any kind of reform.

      1. @sltsylor I’d put ending the filibuster at the top of the list.

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  2. There’s a difference between partisanship and conformity. Conformity makes people go along in public with what they disagree with inside. How this plays out in real life we all know, because we are all conformists to some degree or another; how someone takes this public into the voting booth is beyond me.

    I would say that when I grew up mild conformity was considered kinda good; better than being a jobless hippy or a crazy liberal in San Francisco with the gays in a leather bar or some freak passing out pamphlets about Reagan’s death squads. At a certain point this changed: conformity became less favored. Bush and flyover country and winning the 2004 election was maybe the last gasp of the Silent Majority and its wisdom.

    I believe that Trump’s voters are extremely conformist and that is the issue; and one mark of this conformity is that their assertion conformity is systematic rather than personal, i.e. everyone is like this. I don’t think it’s an accident that right around the rise of Trump we began to entertain arguments in public about who was the real conformist: a 17-year old trans kid or a 45-year old straight white man angry about pronouns?

  3. As a systems analyst, I agree with the premise that individual actions normally cannot significantly change the system.

    However…I have questions.

    Using the “systems prevail” argument, are Germans off the hook for Hitler? Are Israelis off the hook for Gaza? Are American’s off the hook for our treatment of Native Americans? Yes, I am focusing on individual morality and the courage to fight for what is right.

    Given that individual morality may be a factor in the argument, what about all the eligible voters who don’t vote? They speak more loudly than all of the others with their bloc of indifference.

    We are at a moral tipping point in our country. If people don’t throw out the moral cowards, the mobsters, the intolerant religious fanatics, the anti-science evangelists, the politicians bought by money, etc.,
    then yes, the system will become one of corruption. But maybe, just maybe, enough individuals with a sense of morality will vote their conscience, not just their party or wallet.

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    1. @Skookum

      Using the “systems prevail” argument, are Germans off the hook for Hitler? Are Israelis off the hook for Gaza? Are American’s off the hook for our treatment of Native Americans? Yes, I am focusing on individual morality and the courage to fight for what is right.

      It depends on how you are asking the question.

      If the question is: “Did the constitutional structure produce outcome X through free and fair elections that created a truly representative outcome that led to a set of policies?” (which is essentially what James asked and what I note, repeatedly,above) then the only case wherein you can connect mass elections of that type to a policy outcome from your examples is Israel. (And we shall see how that plays out after the next election which is coming soon.)

      The US did not have the kind of elections I am asking for in the 19th century. A majority of Germans did not vote for Hitler, as I have repeatedly noted.

      That does not mean that the governments that perpetrated those crimes are off the hook. But you are asking a different question than the one James asked and that I have amplified.

      The current US government is culpable for what it is doing now. Voters who voted for it have their own culpability. But the same set of citizens with a better system would have produced different outcomes. That’s the point.

      We are talking here about how mass behavior is translated into governing. And the rules and structures matter considerably more than most debates about our politics acknowledge/understand.

      1. Your reply helped me clarify my thinking.

        I realize your and Dr. Joyner’s article are about the architecture of the system that is used to express democracy in our country. I agree that we are in dire need of improvements.

        But, first, those who oppose totalitarianism must win the 2026 mid-terms and then 2028 presidential election. And that is why I refuse to back down on the importance of individual moral courage.

        I agree that Hitler was not elected, but took power after a putsch. BUT, the individual moral courage to resist was a major factor in the allies winning WWII. The collective moral outrage of abolitionists during our Civil war resulted in emancipation of slaves. Think of Martin Luther King, Jr’s fight for the rights of all oppressed people, not just Blacks. Mahatma Gandi, etc. Unfortunately, collective moral courage to fight for the rights of Native Americans never occurred. And as a descendant of colonial settlers from 1600s on both my maternal and fraternal lines, I am acutely aware of how westward expansion of settlers for religious freedom and economic well-being impacted the lives of Native Americans. I’m not personally responsible for my ancestors’ actions for personal survival, but I am responsible to be honest about the impact upon the survival of Native Americans.

        When 36% of eligible voters did not vote in 2024, the lack of civic participation was a significant factor in the election.

        Why didn’t they vote? (1) My vote doesn’t matter. (2) I don’t know who to vote for. (3) My personal pain level doesn’t care who wins. (4) My candidate is going to win anyway (Hillary Clinton voters, I’m lookin’ at you). (5) I have a disdain for politics, and refuse to participate. (6) Simple a failure of imagination that fascism is at our door step.

        As an aside, I just finished Lincoln’s Lady Spymaster: The Untold Story of the Abolitionist Southern Belle Who Helped Win the Civil War. The author wrote it to encourage individual pluck in dangerous times.

        1. @skookum I’ll vote in the presidential election. I may or may not vote in November. But I have zero illusion that my vote matters. There’s zero chance a Republican nominee wins any of those races in my district or state.

        2. @Skookum

          To be clear about two very basic things:

          1. Voting in the now is very important and is the best short-term tool we have.

          2. My core point is that if we don’t accept that the problem is structural, we are never going to get better in the long run.

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  4. I blame the voters. I believe there is still a chance for our system to repair and function as designed. It is a small chance. I also believe a large swath of voters aged 60+ need to die off before that chance has a chance. So, I’ll check back in 20 years if I am still kicking. For the wealthiest country on the planet to have the problems it does, there is no excuse. 100% on the people who believe the BS as well as 100% on the people that sold it to them.

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  5. The problem is the basics of the US constitution were developed at a time and in a context quite different.
    It aimed at a systematisation and perfection of the English political system, as it was thought to be by contemporary Americans.

    They could not anticipate the consequences of a “general white male suffrage” democracy, still less the development of industrial-era “mass society”.

    Therefore the constitution is locked into a pattern that does not account for modern parties, activist control via primaries, party aligned judges, and an electoral college analogous to the human appendix: a source of more problems than benefits.

    There seems to be something to be said for rather vaguer and more adaptable constitutional law.

    1. @JohnSF. Indeed.

      To repeat myself:

      we continue to insist that our giant phone-in-a-bag is just as good as the latest iPhone. Indeed, we refuse to even look at the new iPhone because of giant phone-in-a-bag exceptionalism.

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      1. I’ve lately been re-reading some political history of Britain c. 1830 to 1930.
        If that polity had had to cope with a written constitution entrenching the situation at any given point, its relatively peaceful modification would have been much more difficult.
        As it was, the working out of the consequences of a wide male suffrage from 1909 to 1914 came scarily close to systemic breakdown and possibly even civil war.

        Political ossification is a serious problem.

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        1. Political ossification is a serious problem.

          This!

    2. The U. S. Constitution was a pretty good first draft, but it made itself too difficult to update. And “originalists” regard it as holy writ. Well, pretend to, anyway.

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  6. This is maybe a bit OT, but it was inspired by:

    And yes, in a perfect world MAGA should be enough to get people to flee the GOP en masse. We can ignore the social science of partisanship all we like, but it doesn’t change empirically observable mass behavior. It is hard to get people to change the party they vote for. This is science, like it or not. We can also ignore the fact that most voters don’t pay that much attention to the news and therefore fall back on partisan identification. That, too, is science, like it or not.

    I find it not hard at all to find people who ignore or disdain these findings, or the findings of social science and social psychology altogether. These are people who are well educated. They are bright. They are aligned with me politically.

    Meanwhile, the billionaires and their chosen candidates and operatives run plays directly out of the social psychology playbook and are digging for more tools. We have seen chapter and verse on these kinds of operations, fully documented, and mostly people behave and think about our situation as if they didn’t exist. Those tools are working at least to some extent. I wish my fellow travellers would get in the game.

    I like where Steven is going. I note that it took the pro-life movement 50 years to get the SCOTUS they wanted, but they didn’t give up. I don’t want what they want, but I like their determination.

  7. yes, it is fair to make a judgment about the morality of supporting Trump and his co-partisans, but the most important variable to explain the government we get out of our elections is structure, not the voters.

    Is it more important than the media landscape? We are seeing a rise of fascism and fascism-lite throughout the European and European-adjacent democracies* at the same time we see a consolidation of media and the emergence of a effectively stateless overclass of extremely wealthy people controlling that media**.

    The electoral college in the US is not a direct cause for England becoming TERF Island (I hope Beth is ok). I am willing to entertain a less direct cause, like the US electoral college creating the system that allows for this wealthy, stateless overclass to exist, and that it has infected Europe… it seems to make more sense than other theories (for instance, Harry Potter mania)

    ——
    *: if Rubio wants to talk about European civilization, I think it’s fair to call us European-adjacent, and then wonder why we don’t have universal healthcare, why Albania*** is fighting back more effectively than the US, etc… (also, I just don’t know enough about the rest of the world to know if we are seeing a trend in fascism there)

    **: including social media here.

    ***: yes, there is more than a hint of “wow, Albania? Weird little backwater Albania?” there. Nothing quite puts an education steeped in American Exceptionalism to the test than being bested by Albania****.

    ****: Albania’s current wave of protests started with people upset about Jared Kushner, so America creating a wealthy overclass that is infecting the world with our bullshit seems very plausible.

    1. @Gustopher

      In my opinion, the media landscape isn’t its own problem as much as it is causal for the voter problem. Jefferson wasn’t wrong when he said (paraphrasing): a well-informed electorate is pre-requisite for democratic governance. “Fixing” the voter problem will require reforms to how the electorate is fed information.

    2. There’s a real difference between politics within the conventional limits of a constitution, and what can happen if a party decides that its interests override, or in some way embody the essence of, the constitution or the nation, and therefore that it can stretch the law to its limits or beyond to obtain and retain power and use it their interest.

      Once again, I’s being reminded of the constitutional crisis in the UK 1909 to 1914.

      And in such crises the media are really a second-order issue to the uses of power.

  8. The answer to the question leads us to where we need to go to fix things. If it is just “the voters,” then we can spend our time trying to fix messaging, campaigns, and candidates. If it is the structure, then pro-democracy politicians and citizens better be working on a serious set of reforms.

    Of course, as your sub-header states, it’s both the voters and the system. And I can even see my way to agreeing that the structure bears the greater responsibility for the dysfunction.

    But when it comes to “fixing things” I don’t see an argument for structural reforms first and foremost. As you note: “better structures guarantee nothing”, so ultimately we have to “fix” both the voters and the system – probably concurrently for the most part. It seems to me that you’d need voters to elect pro-democracy politicians to advance any reforms. There’s a bit of chicken/egg there, in my opinion.

    Nevertheless, I think the first step is obvious. We have to stop making excuses for voters who are choosing anti-democracy (and corrupt and criminal and inept and unfit) politicians because the system made them do it. Voters have the agency to choose between voting for unfit politicians that serve their interests and voting for the greater good even if it is against their interests. There is a moral choice between good and evil that supersedes political agendas.

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  9. It is hard to get people to change the party they vote for.

    Because our blinkered morality is such that we downplay and normalize the amoral acts of someone like Trump, because he’s rich white man. Has there been even one major media think piece or Substack bro newsletter admitting that no black or woman presidential candidate could get away with the nonsense tolerated from Trump, and examining the reasons why? No, because America does not want to confront that and what it says about us, and how these racist and sexist double standards were central to Trump’s elections. The electoral system is not why the New York Times and WaPo haven’t bothered to touch that subject.

    It wasn’t so difficult to get Alabama to vote for Doug Jones over Roy Moore, once voters understood that Moore’s past was too abhorrent to justify. The Platner comparison won’t work; he was gotten rid of because he would’ve caused Maine Democrats the same problem Roy Moore caused for Alabama Republicans. Platner would not have won, because he was made abhorrent.

    Yet America continues to downplay and justify Trump’s abhorrence and unfitness. That’s not a system failure, it’s a moral failure. The system is not why you and Dr. Joyner and the punditry refuse to call Trump’s Jan 6 terror attack “a terror attack.” The refusal of so many to speak about Trump’s evil acts with that kind of stark clarity is a failure of ethical will and messaging, not just of the system. Again, where are the major media editorials admitting that if Trump had sent a mob of brown-skinned Muslims to the Capitol, it would have been instantly recognized as the terror attack it was, fovever disqualifying Trump from office. Why aren’t Ezra Klein, Nate Silver, Matt Yglesisas, and Andrew Sullivan Substacking about that double-standard, admitting that in America only a group of white terrorists could see their leader re-elected to pardon them?

    Nowhere. America can’t broach such a subject, because then we’d have to talk about our white supremacy and how it made Trump’s election possible. The system is not why we’re not having that conversation.

    Until I see more Americans willing to call Trump what he is in plain language — a pedophile who incited a terror attack on Congress — then yes I can and will blame America. Because it is this refusal to recognize who and what Trump really is that has paved the path for his nomination, and renomination, and election.

    It would be no big hurdle for Republican primary voters or American general election voters to reject a Hitler, a Manson, a Dahmer, or a Gacy. It should be that simple when it comes to Trump. If not because too many y’all don’t want to call him out for the incompetent and unqualified racist POS Putin-puppet monster that he is, instead dismissing such language as so much black liberal hysteria. That is why the white people around you could’ve justified voting for him, until the Epstein Files and Trumpflation prompted a second look.

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    1. Canadian government:

      A terrorist attack is the unlawful use of force, violence, or threats against people, property, or systems to intimidate a civilian population, coerce a government, or advance a political, religious, or ideological goal.

      We are a country that remains in deep denial. It is not conducive to progress.

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    2. @DK

      It wasn’t so difficult to get Alabama to vote for Doug Jones over Roy Moore, once voters understood that Moore’s past was too abhorrent to justify.

      Except that it was.

      Jones won a plurality of the vote and barely beat Moore. If it had been anything other than a special election, I think Moore would have won.

      he Platner comparison won’t work; he was gotten rid of because he would’ve caused Maine Democrats the same problem Roy Moore caused for Alabama Republicans. Platner would not have won, because he was made abhorrent

      Are you really going to argue that if Platner had stayed on the ballot, a lot of people on this site would have argued to vote for Collins instead of Platner out of a sense of morality?

      1. I’m arguing the question is irrelevant because Platner was pushed off the ballot because his moral abhorrence. That alone disproves the point.

        The question that should be asked is why didn’t Republicans push Trump off the ballot in 2024, when they had multiple other options.

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        1. @DK

          1. You are avoiding the question.

          2. You have certainly read my criticisms of the GOP on this count.

    3. @DK

      Yet America continues to downplay and justify Trump’s abhorrence and unfitness.

      Am I not part of “America”? Are not all of the anti-Trump movement part of “America”?

      Is Jamelle Bouie not part of America?

      Are you not part of America?

      Do you not see the problem with the overgeneralization?

      That’s not a system failure, it’s a moral failure. The system is not why you and Dr. Joyner and the punditry refuse to call Trump’s Jan 6 terror attack “a terror attack.”

      I have called it an insurrection from pretty much the jump and have noted repeatedly that it was not a peaceful transfer of power.

      I have called the administration fascist.

      But I am to be decried as inadequate because I haven’t called the Jan 6ers terrorists?

      What are we even doing here?

      1. Do you not see the problem with the overgeneralization?

        No, I don’t. We refer to Nazi Germany as Nazi Germany, and recognize failures thereof as German. We don’t need to issue a disclaimer that not every single German supported the Nazis.

        I have called it an insurrection from pretty much the jump

        That’s nice. But Jan 6 was a terror attack on Congress incited by the president, and if it had been a mob of brown Muslims instead of white Trumpers, you and everyone else would have referred to it as such pretty much from the jump.

        So “what we are doing here” is perpetuating exactly the kinds of racial double standards that have normalized Trump’s malfeasance, because America is a country incapable of holding white men, white people, the rich, and especially rich white men to the same standards it requires of others — a American moral failure as responsible for Trump’s rise as any system.

        In fact, to reference this racist double standard rather than play the denial game is to be greeted with hostility and more denial. And that’s one reason why we can’t get it together as a people.

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        1. @DK It is already exhausting to try and write daily (and for free!) about the threat of the Trump administration to our democracy.

          But sure, it is a huge boost of energy to be taken to task by a regular reader who surely knows my positions on all of this, for not using their preferred word for a given event.

          Makes all of the time and effort worth it!

          Note: I don’t mind disagreement, but it is highly frustrating to be criticized while thousands upon thousands of words are just ignored.

          That is what I was asking about when I said, “What are we doing here?”

      2. Am I not part of “America”? Are not all of the anti-Trump movement part of “America”?

        Effectively an aberration. I wish that were not the case.

        America has not rejected Trump. Trump, Trumpy and Trump-like are well within the realm of possibilities going forward.

        I suspect that is what DK means.

        America has, at least for now, rejected anyone literally carrying a Nazi flag. But, that’s more of a fashion choice than anything.

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        1. @Gustopher: I think that there are contexts in which it is fair to talk about “America” and its failings on this topic.

          But his conversation is about voters, which we aren’t talking monotypes.

    4. @DK Trump’s seven-times-a-day transgressions have made everyone tired. But “Imagine If Obama Had Done This” pieces have become a downright trope.

      1. But “Imagine If Obama Had Done This” pieces have become a downright trope.

        Isn’t the fact that the general electorate has grown bored of holding Trump to some minimal standard for a president a problem? Isn’t it a problem that it has become blasé to call out GOP voters (who have empowered and enabled Trumpism) of their gross hypocrisy?

        Isn’t those problems voter problems and not a structural problems?

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        1. Scott F:

          Isn’t the fact that the general electorate has grown bored of holding Trump to some minimal standard for a president a problem?

          You will get no argument from me that people should never have voted for Trump.

          But, again, if we didn’t have the Electoral College and had relied on just the voters, we never would have had Trump in the first place.

          And I think we are about to see the general electorate repudiate Trump at the ballot box. But because of structural reasons, that repudiation will only go so far towards fixing the problem. If I were a betting man, I would bet that the general electorate will repudiate the GOP in 2028 as well, but if the Dems aren’t prepared to at least tinker with the structure, we will be back roughly where we are by 2030 (i.e., with a dysfunctional federal government).

      2. And even in that 7-year-old piece, the real problem is too often hidden behind milquetoast euphemisms about partisanship: “Republicans tolerate moves that, had they been carried out by a Democratic president such as Barack Obama, would have afflicted the GOP with a series of collective aneurysms.”

        A serious piece in a country ready to confront its real issues would have opened thusly: “A majority of white American men continue to poll in support of Trump, despite digusting behaviors that, had they been carried out by any black politician of any name, would have sent white America into paroxysms of rage and Hillary Clinton into office in an electoral college landslide.”

        The trope here America’s ongoing refusal to confront the truth about what’s actually fueling Trumpism. Deny, deny, deny. Racism and sexism? Lol what racism and sexism? Not us! (Pay no attention to the slurs and hate flying around in private police / GOP staffer texts keep leaking.)

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        1. One thing is for certain: we never talk about racism and sexism here at OTB!

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    5. Thank you for speaking up. I haven’t lived your life experience, and I have no wish to refute or dismiss your reality.

      I live in a Republican-dominated area who overwhelmingly voted for Trump, and it’s been a real struggle to not harden my heart against them. Some voters are closet racists, I have no doubt, but most voted for Trump as a backlash against the economic effects of COVID (i. e., inflation), concern about children being able to explore changing their gender and homosexuality, and misguided belief the the GOP today is the same GOP of Lincoln and Eisenhower. They seem to have conveniently forgotten the two decades of war since 9/11 and January 6, but, really, I think they believed Trump couldn’t really be THAT bad and anyone was better than Harris. Who knows what contorted thinking they used to check the box for Trump.

      Dr. Joyner has repeatedly shot me down for playing the sexism card. He’s around young professional women today who did not undergo the sexism of that I experienced. He cannot relate to my living experience, and he makes me angry enough to leave this venue for long periods of time.

      But he’s right in one respect: Sexism is not an argument for all ills in society. And I would respectfully ask you to consider that racism isn’t either.

      Women, people of color, Muslims, Jews have always had to “dance better backwards and in high heels” to survive. And you ARE right that if a woman, person of color, Muslim, Jew, or any other minority had called for January 6 attack, they would have been held to a higher standard and possibly incarceration.

      Please don’t harden your heart. It won’t help us climb the mountain. We need to keep our hearts open and bring folks along with us with everyday acts of moral courage, including voting our conscience and speaking truth to power.

      Lastly, when I check in on OTB, I always shake my head in amazement that Dr. Joyner and Dr. Taylor find the strength to write something every single day. Let’s you and I continue to argue our case, but also remember that this blog is a significant form of resistance to the fascist tendencies of the Trump administration and may someday be of historical importance. We’re all doing our best.

      1. @Skookum I’m old enough to remember when we called it ”male chauvinism,” and wouldn’t at all argue sexism doesn’t still exist. I just point out that we can’t dismiss Harris’ loss as pure sexism when Clinton beat Trump by 3 million votes.

        1. Hillary Clinton lost. But not for sexism, she would’ve won by 30 million votes against someone like Trump, because he’s an asshole who’s not qualified to be president — by resume, skills, or character.

          Keep everything else the same and just switch Trump into a woman and Clinton into a man, and 2016 would’ve been a redux of the near-unanimous electoral landslides of yore, with Clinton winning. Because the universal disgust directed at Republicans nominating an old fat lady nepo baby reality TV celebrity with zero prior political experience, a bad orange tan, and a patchy combover — with children by multiple spouses she cheated on, bankruptcies and business fraud all over place, lying at a frenetic clip and retweeting Nazi imagery while accused of harassment or assault by 30+ and counting — would’ve been incalculable.

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        2. I agree with you. I don’t believe sexism was a deciding factor in Harris’s loss. The biggest factor in 2024 was the lack of competitiveness in the Democratic primary, in my view, so we ended up with Biden, and fewer Republicans trusted a Democrat after his debate performance. The system was broken.

      2. That sword cuts both ways. If racism is not the argument for all ills in society, then structure and systems are not the argument for all ills in society either.

        Racism is more prevalent and determinative in American society than many want to admit, and racism (and sexism) are why Trump is able to get away with the vile, scummy behavior he gets away with. Because no black woman politician could ever do and say the things Trump has done, or even present physically as gross and sloppy as Trump does, and be taken seriously as a presidential candidate.

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        1. First, I rather explicitly stated, multiple times, that structure isn’t the totality of the argument.

          Second, I have never discounted racism, quite the opposite in fact.

          We are ostensibly on the same side, yet you are being a jerk. Why?

        2. Because no black woman politician could ever do and say the things Trump has done, or even present physically as gross and sloppy as Trump does, and be taken seriously as a presidential candidate.

          I concur.

          But what does that have to do with a single word I have written or any argument I have offered?

      3. @Skookum

        I always shake my head in amazement that Dr. Joyner and Dr. Taylor find the strength to write something every single day.

        It is a compulsion! 😉

  10. In project management terms (not legal) the structural issues are “actionable”, the voter issue not so much. “Actionable” meaning we could form an appropriate team, sit down in a room, do Root Cause Analysis, and produce a workable action item list to solve each problem. (Some of those action item lists would have to contain “-Ratify Constitutional Amendment”, but not all of them.)

    Yes, the voters are a box of rocks. But the voters were always a box of rocks. I think the voters are degraded by social media and by partisan media, but those, at least in principle, fall under structural issues we could, in theory, deal with.

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    1. I like the analogy of project management analogy on actionable issues.

      But I disagree that voters are a box of rocks. Voters and non-voters, each and everyone of us, in the private act of voting (or not voting), express our perceived personal best interest.

      The key is to clearly identify the risks the voters face.

      And no major media outlet has clearly and consistently labeled Trump, his administration, and the Federal Society as a totalitarian political movement to my knowledge. Apparently WSJ is speaking out against Trump, but Fox is free and confirms the beliefs of those who can’t fathom fascism being a real thing in the USA.

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    2. My doubt is there is that the structural issues are theoretically actionable, but practically, not so much.
      At least at present.
      it will require a US consensus that the current Constitution is borked.
      And that runs headlong into not only vested interests but a widespread attitude the that the “Founding Fathers” in US political concepts have a similar status to the “Fathers of the Church” in Catholic theology.

      It might be thought that given the experiences of Civil War, New Deal, and Civil Rights, that the wisdom of the Founders might be viewed a bit more sceptically.
      But it seems a lot of Americans are unable to move on.

      Understandable: it has endured a lot longer than most constitutional settlements elsewhere. But all things must change, sooner or later, if they are based on past predicates that no longer apply.

  11. Incidentally, Professor Taylor, I’d like to thank you for making me aware of Liberal Currents
    Some very interesting essays and analyses there, besides your own 😉
    Seems well worth bookmarking.

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  12. Just Another Ex-Republican Avatar
    Just Another Ex-Republican

    It feels like there is a lot of talking past each other in these two threads. Saying it’s the voters fault, or the systems fault, is a weird (and very human) binary choice. The truth is it’s both and more.

    It’s obvious the systems are a major problem, especially in regards to Congress. I don’t think anyone is really disputing that. But Trump won the popular vote in 2024–if there was no Electoral college and nothing but one person, one vote, and the highest total wins…he still won. And I think it’s fair to blame voters for that. Did the “systems” (media/parties/campaign laws/a Supreme Court somewhere between an ivory tower debating club and openly partisan) impact how the voters saw things and what information they based their vote on? Of course they did! But it was individuals filling out a ballot who still chose Trump. How can they not bear a great deal of responsibility for that?

    Now I don’t agree that every Republican is a sexist, racist, fascist asshole. I think most of them are ignorant of some things (like just how sexist, racist, and fascist Trump actually is) and believe a lot of other idiotic lies (like R’s are better for the stock market and economy, and D’s want to force your kids to become trans) that they’ve been fed for generations now. The problem remains that the two halves of America literally live in different worlds at this point. The right doesn’t see and hear the same appalling stuff we do (and vice-versa, though I have definite strong opinions that we are much closer to reality). Free speech is vital to a functioning democratic republic; propaganda is lethal to it. And here in America propaganda has won.

    You also have to acknowledge America’s own culture, racism, and sexism, also played a part. Take DK’s question that if the Republicans had nominated an old black woman with no qualifications or political experience, long histories of fraud, discrimination, and sexual aggression complete with multiple divorces, would that person have won in 2016 (or 2024)? Don’t make me laugh–and that means the voters, not just the systems, bear a significant responsibility for the (Presidential) result. Gerrymandering and first past the post systems greatly impact Congress, and I blame the voters much less for that mess, but…Trump won the popular vote.

    Finally (too late!) you have to remember how little most Americans follow politics and how unusual this community is. Really the only major reason the R’s are headed for a shellacking is gas prices. If you think they are turning on Trump because of ICE, Iran, Ukraine, corruption, sexism, racism and all his other many, many faults you are fooling yourselves. We the People would have swallowed (or more accurately, ignored and told themselves “it’s not that bad and all politicians are the same anyway”) all of that and more if his tariffs and Iran hadn’t hit people in their wallet. And to me, that depressing realization about my fellow Americans means that I have to assign primary responsibility for President Trump to the voters themselves.

    1. Polling indicates that the Iran War is massively unpopular.
      Add that to the obvious economic consequences thereof, and the Trumpublicans have a problem.

      Trump’s own attempt to pass the blame for diesel prices onto Ukraine indicates even that idiot has some awareness of this.
      I doubt even most of the Republican base are so stupid as to fall for that one.

      I could just sit back and blame “all Americans” for all ills.
      Including the decline of modern music, films, fashion, and interior decoration.

      But I’ll let you off if you can just be sensible in November. 😉

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    2. The idea that it is both voters and the system is close to my thoughts that the voters are a part of the system. Reading these posts and the comments I’m convinced that there is value is separating the “voter” part of the system from the “electoral structure” part of the system, but I agree that it is important not to lose sight of how those parts make up the whole.

      I will take a little issue with the idea of “Trump won the popular vote” being evidence for putting this firmly at the voters’ feet. While counterfactual arguments are always a bit suspect, it is true that with a different electoral system (popular vote) people who stayed home because their state was not competitive under the EC system might have been induced to vote. Of course this is true of R as well as D voters so you may well be right.

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    3. @Just Another Ex-Republican

      It feels like there is a lot of talking past each other in these two threads. Saying it’s the voters fault, or the systems fault, is a weird (and very human) binary choice.

      In fairness, please note the sub-head of the article plus the at least four times in the piece that I noted the culpability of voters.

      IMO a lot of people are ignoring what I wrote and are not addressing the arguments made therein, but perhaps I am grumpy.

      But Trump won the popular vote in 2024–if there was no Electoral college and nothing but one person, one vote, and the highest total wins…he still won.

      This is true and is an indictment of the public, but it also ignores that he never would have been the nominee in 2024 without having won a popular vote inversion in 2016 (structure) after having won the nomination without an absolute majority of the primary vote (structure).

      And the voters did reject him in 2020.

      The picture is complicated.

      And yes, gas prices are a huge deal in 2024, as was inflation in 2020, both of which suggest that the issue is not Trump, per se (at least not in the indict all of America sense).

  13. I think too many people think I am trying to excuse Republicans or defend America.

    Neither is my goal.

    I am trying to show how deep flaws in the system help get us here and why fixing them might be a good idea before the next Trump is smarter and better at fascism.

  14. I would dearly like to redirect the conversation to this:

    To conclude: again, I am not saying that individual voters don’t have moral culpability for their votes. But I am simply noting that by no metric does 50%+1 of the public actually want what we’ve got, and yet we have it. If that is a true statement, and I am prepared to defend it, then where is the real blame? Is it “the voters” or is it the structure of the system?

    This goes beyond just the presidency, BTW.

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    1. Germany 1933.
      The majority of voters did not want Nazi rule; but that’s what they got.
      Because of of combination of electoral laws, political alliances of expediency, and miscalculations.
      Beware those who will use the limits of the law to enable their power.

      (btw, I still don’t think Trump/MAGA qualifies as fascist, because it’s still not yet a totalising system of social mobilisation. But some parts of it would surely like to be,)

      1. @JohnSF:

        The majority of voters did not want Nazi rule; but that’s what they got.
        Because of of combination of electoral laws, political alliances of expediency, and miscalculations.
        Beware those who will use the limits of the law to enable their power.

        That kind of makes my core point, doesn’t it?

        a totalising system of social mobilisation

        Not to start another debate, but I don’t think that something has to be totalizing to be fascist.

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        1. That kind of makes my core point, doesn’t it?

          It does. On this I agree entirely.

          “… I don’t think that something has to be totalizing to be fascist.”

          On this I think we must agree to disagree.
          I may attempt to explain the reasons for my opinion in more detail at some point.

    2. I’m curious if you have any thoughts on good organizations that are addressing these structural improvements where allocating some volunteer effort would be worthwhile