Tuesday’s Forum
Steven L. Taylor
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Tuesday, August 20, 2024
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116 comments
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About Steven L. Taylor
Steven L. Taylor is a retired Professor of Political Science and former College of Arts and Sciences Dean. His main areas of expertise include parties, elections, and the institutional design of democracies. His most recent book is the co-authored
A Different Democracy: American Government in a 31-Country Perspective. He earned his Ph.D. from the University of Texas and his BA from the University of California, Irvine. He has been blogging since 2003 (originally at the now defunct Poliblog).
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I read an article a few days back about how The Sopranos aged poorly.
The author complained about how poorly the show handled body shaming, racism, homosexuality, misogyny, violence.
THAT WAS THE FUCKING POINT! They handled it poorly because the main character and all the backing dudes couldn’t deal with modernity. Tony, and the OG mob couldn’t deal with modernity. It flummoxed them entirely. Characterization does not equal authorial intent.
In a show about Mafia guys trying to transition into the 21st century, they were
expectedly regressive. Why would author think otherwise?
Transitional mafia guys fucking up badly and repeatedly trying not to be irrelevant. It is explicitly about how the old ways no longer work and how that makes the people still in that life freak out.
Aagh! Stupidest take ever!
The author of the piece has the temerity to equate characterization of shit-bag mafiosi with authorial advocating. The writers intended Tony Soprano to be an asshole, a racist, a misogynistic, a creep, threatening stalker.
They sort of fake you into kinda rooting for him, but he is intended to be a fucking asshole and a criminal. Tony Soprano makes Walter White look like a good guy.
If you root for Tony long term, you’re a psychopath. He is a very, very bad guy.
To the author of the piece in question – please re-evaluate your premise. You missed the point!
I always thought more media exposure would lead to better media literacy. Apparently, I was wrong. I hope this is not representational of Gen Z thinking, generationally.
@de stijl: I read that David Chase was bothered by the initially positive reception to Tony’s character by some fans, and it was why he chose to give him a darker arc in the later seasons. When Dr. Melfi reads that article about how sociopaths take therapists for a ride, we’re supposed to reflect on whether we, as the audience, have been manipulated into sympathizing for
Tony throughout the entire show. I definitely believe that was Chase’s intention.
Indeed, from what I’ve seen, many fans take this overboard and refuse to see any redeeming qualities in Tony, whereas I still think he’s a complicated character, which is what makes him fascinating. The show doesn’t compromise on how reprehensible he becomes, but it doesn’t make him inhuman either. He is often relatable, and I would argue he does show elements of a buried conscience at times, he just nearly always undercuts it. I don’t accept Dr. Kupferberg’s claim that it’s all “crocodile tears.” But the entire show takes place in a sealed world in which nearly all the characters are deeply flawed, with Melfi being practically our only source of oxygen as to how a “normal” person would react.
Any movie or show with a villain protagonist is going to invite criticisms like the one you read, where no matter how many times it’s explained we’re not supposed to be rooting for the guy, some people will proclaim it’s glamorizing violence and evil and infecting our souls whether we realize it or not. It’s almost a Victorian mindset, and it has followed the mafioso genre for as long as it’s existed, going back to when original Scarface was forced to stamp a disclaimer at the start of the movie informing us that the main character is a scumbag, just in case we couldn’t figure that out for ourselves.
Today is primary election day. Me and the dear wife will be voting in an hour after she gets home from church. DW is on vacation.
Honestly, we are not enthusiastic about t he election today. Our county commission seat is up for grabs but we care little either candidate. On the Democratic ballot, I will be voting for one of long time County Sheriff Ric Bradshaw’s opponents. On the Republican ballot, DW will help choose who will oppose our Congresswoman Lois Frankel in November plus vote against incumbent Senator Rick Scott. These votes aren’t likely to do much good. All 3 of these incumbents who we loathe to varying degrees are not likely to lose in November.
@de stijl: I re-watched the first couple of episodes of All in the Family a few months ago, and had a similar reaction.
First of all, that show could be made today with very few re-writes and still be relevant to the topics they dealt with.
Secondly, and more importantly, I see on Facebook and elsewhere, people nostalgic for those days when Archie Bunker was a regular sort of guy and people just accepted it. These old folks miss, or have forgotten, the entire point of the show.
I like the bit about making the Tony Soprano character darker and more evil to prevent that sort of sentiment, but who could have predicted it?
I don’t know if this happens frequently, or if there have just been some significant miscalculations by the writers/producers of shows and their audiences.
Alex P. Keaton, played by Michael J. Fox, was supposed to be sort of the conservative jackass that people on Family Ties would use as a punchline. He ended up being the breakout star of the show. Was it the timing (show premiered in 1982, squaring up with Reagan’s uptick in popularity) and/or zeitgeist, or was it just that Michael J. Fox was adorable and that made his character more palatable?
@de stijl: The perils of taking seriously clickbait composed by AI. Media literacy includes the ability to discern the difference between serious analysis and content farming. Boomers have to stop getting outraged by internet nonsense.
@de stijl:
A criticism that amounts to “Mobsters are not woke, and not bothered about it” seems to miss the point of s drama set in that milieu.
You could perhaps introduce some cops as contrasts/narrators; but that might break the focus on the interactions of a bunch of unpleasant people.
And the drama certainly showed them as such: see the episode where “Paulie” coldly murders an old lady for a stash of cash.
I completely forgot about the Democratic convention yesterday, besides I was writing a story. I must ask: how did it go when Biden took back his presidency, as the Orange Felon with the anal mouth prophesized?
You know how superheroes and supervillains often get their extraordinary powers as a result of highly improbable, sciency-sounding accidents? We all know most such accidents would be fatal, or leave people crippled or disabled, or do nothing at all (ie a bite from a radioactive spider).
Well, the closest real thing to that was Biden dropping out and Harris taking over the nomination.
It wasn’t an accident, but it was unplanned. And that, IMO, is why many of us are still astonished it’s worked out so well.
@Tony W: Tony Soprano occasionally reminded me of Archie Bunker, like in his rant about “Senator Sanitorium.” Of course it’s hard to draw exact parallels between a crime lord and a regular working stiff. And I think Archie was always intended to be a bit likable. What surprised Norman Lear and Carroll O’Connor was the number of conservative fans the show attracted, because even though Archie isn’t consistently depicted as a bad guy, his conservative beliefs are pretty consistently the source of mockery and ridicule; when he rises to the occasion, it is in spite of those beliefs, not because of them. A great deal of the show centers around the conflict between how he wants the world to be and his own conscience–and most of the time he does the right thing in the end (while being dragged kicking and screaming the entire way). And most of his beliefs stem from ignorance more than malice. Tony Soprano, who’s better educated and more intelligent than Archie, doesn’t have that excuse.
When it comes to how AITF should be viewed today, it’s roughly in the same category as Blazing Saddles, in that I hear people calling it “something that couldn’t be made today,” far more than I hear anyone actually arguing it hasn’t aged well. Indeed, most of the modern commentary I’ve seen on both works argue that they’ve stood the test of time quite well.
I’ve never been interested in the mafia, past visiting the Mob Museum in Vegas*. So, I’m unfamiliar with the mob movie genre, and never watched single ep of The Sopranos.
While I can’t comment on that show, I can point out people tend to gravitate towards the protagonist in any story. This leads to seeing them in a better light, especially for complex characters. It may also lead to a desire to identify with them, or at least to see them in a sympathetic light.
This happens even in history. Listening to Duncan’s The History of Rome, I tended to take the Romans’ side in every conflict (and there were many). I managed to get past it, but this happens at other times. While studying ancient Egypt, for instance, or taking the Trojans’ side in the Iliad, even though Homer clearly favors the other side.
Imagine a version of 1984 told from o’Brian’s point of view.
Also, apparently the same thing happened to everyone who read or saw Dune.
*Formally the National Museum of Organized Crime & Law Enforcement. Well worth the visit.
@Kathy:
And one of the reasons I seldom watch movies based on comic books. The last I may have watched willingly* was probably Superman III.
*- Dear wife dragged me to a Batman movie 20-25 years ago.
@Kathy: I have never watched The Sopranos either.
@de stijl:
This is one of the battles I had years ago in kidlit. The Leftie canceling pogrom has of course been memory-holed now that right-wing book-banners have reminded liberals that we are not supposed to be those people. But the very idea that a writer could write characters who were not the writer, was under attack. The whole concept of fiction was under attack, by people with college degrees in literature who somehow had never come to grips with how fiction works. I had to fight liberals for the right to write characters who was not white and male and straight.
The stupidity! It burned!
And just as soon as right-wing book banning falls off the front page I’m sure left-wing counterparts will be back at it, having learned nothing.
@DK:
The mainstream media practices lots of ‘write anything just to fill a space.’ Especially when it comes to sports. Locally it is articles about the Miami Dolphins, in the golf media it is when if ever Tiger Woods play will make a comeback. I stopped reading this stuff a long time ago.
Per this article it looks like Silicon Valley is more openly giving up on DEI programs. Most of us who follow markets know that tech has been having layoffs and some of this is due to cutting back on spending. However, looking at the numbers, either the ones provided in the article or the ones from BLS which Drum has posted, the money and effort put into DEI programs has resulted in almost no gains or actual losses. Judged by performance they should be dropping these programs.
So first, I think that for the large majority of these programs there was no real commitment on the part of management. Having a DEI consultant and program was just a fig leaf and they still hired whoever they wanted. However, I think it was also clear that a lot fo the DEI consultants/programs were ineffectual at best and grifts at worst. When I looked at programs for my corporations the consultants seemed offended that I would ask for metrics to show that their work provided results. It’s a shame since there is a fair amount of literature showing that diversity does improve work outcomes. We need a better way to achieve that goal than the DEI plans being offered.
https://archive.ph/CXNl3
Steve
@Tony W:
I had a major supporting character who I openly described as a psychopath, a sadist, a woman-hater, evil to the core, and lest that was too subtle, he had a 10 foot long tentacle in lieu of his right arm.
He had many young female fans.
Once you send your book, song, TV show or movie out into the world, it’s not yours anymore.
@Michael Reynolds:
In a short story book of mine I had a couple of critics who didn’t like a very Gung Ho patriot and another that had very strong pro-life views. The world is full of people not like this author.
H0w many times have I written about Asian male or female LGBT folks? Lots. One person said I had a Filipino fetish. I’m married to a Filipina, lived there when serving in the Navy, and have made four other visits to the PI. I write about people and culture I know a little bit about.
“Outgoing Ambassador to the UN Gilad Erdan says the United Nations building in New York is ‘unnecessary’ and ‘should be closed and wiped off the face of the earth.’”
Well, that’s kind of inappropriate, considering… But what do I know?
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/outgoing-envoy-to-un-says-bodys-building-should-be-closed-and-wiped-off-the-face-of-the-earth/
@steve:
So is Hollywood. It’s vital when doing a good thing to do it well.
@Michael Reynolds:
How many Donald Trump supporters did I drive away with my next to last self-published book which had a character defeat a Trump supporter in the general election for a Maine State House seat? Better question, are there any who read my Sci-Fi LGBT fiction?
I’ve been clicking on todays Open Forum for about 2 hours this morning. Suddenly the Anti Spam Crawler appeared for the first time today. Often it cycles just once or occasionally 2 or 3 times. After it went 4 cycles this time I started counting. It repeated 15 times before I closed the Chrome*. When I started the browser again Crawler was gone. Sure hope it is destroying spam with every repeat. Somehow I doubt it.
*Reminds me of a song.
I’m not sure poor media literacy is concentrated in any particular cohort.
Interesting take on campaign reset:
https://the.ink/p/new-democratic-party-brat-pack
some excerpts:
snip
snip
It’s a long piece, a lot more at the link.
@Mister Bluster: I’ve been getting the anti-spam crawler for several days now. It happens more often when I visit the site from my phone, but it also happens on my PC. And yes, sometimes if I hit refresh too often, it seems to go into an endless loop of counting down from 3, and after several iterations I don’t wait to see if it finally loads the page, I switch to a different device.
It’s frustrating because the site still suffers from the problem of not updating for new comments until you hit refresh, and especially with my OCD my temptation is to hit refresh a lot of times just to make sure it’s up to date; now I can’t do that anymore without the spam crawler appearing.
Come on, maga.
You can’t possibly actually think that someone votes based on who’s more physically attractive….. or, even if that does actually happen, that Trump is hotter than Kamala.
And……. How is it actually possible that nobody in your entire organization worked the higher calculus to figure out that if Biden drops out of the race, his VP for the last 4 years would be the nominee?
@Kylopod:
Akin to that is how some of the fandom reacted to Skylar in Breaking Bad.
Why is she questioning his abandonment of his spousal obligations irt truth and transparency? How dare she question him! Hubby, why are you obviously lying? Were I in a relationship and my SO started acting that flaky, I would try to understand, I would actively pry and try to suss out the issue, but absolutely baling out would also be in my toolkit. I’m not a fool. Sometimes, I can read the obvious writing on the wall.
From a story-telling perspective they had to keep Skylar around to challenge him. She’s the super-ego that dares to challenge him.
The hate that Skylar got from “fans” of the show for being a concerned, proactive spouse astonished me. She’s trying to figure out what’s going on with her hubby. The marriage has suddenly changed to a much more unstable place. She wants to know why. She wants to help Walter and to understand. He basically abandons her when not using her as a shield or a dodge.
Apparently a lot of folks saw her rightful probing as unbearable nagging. To me, it is the natural response if you are in a long term, committed relationship. You seem to be struggling; I want to help.
Skylar hate also strikes me a bizarre, because she is the audience surrogate. Until we get a more beefed up Walt Jr., that is.
An alarmingly large slice of the of people identified with Walter White and his struggle with his own hubris. A lot of undereducated people equate protagonist with hero (rightfully so in most instances).
You’re not supposed to identify with Walter White. He is basically Pride personified. He is amoral, prideful, thin-skinned, vengeful, extremely petty, grudge holder, superior asshole. Repressed.
Walter White is a bad guy. Not forced into it by his diagnosis – he has always been a bad guy. A terminal diagnosis usually frees up who you are as a person deep down. Some folks get charitable when they know the end is nigh. Walter wanted to settle scores. Delighted in it.
@Kurtz:
Yeah, I agree. Sorry to make the inference. No one should make an inference based on someone’s age. I apologize.
Every new cohort struggles to fully understand the world that preceded them. They don’t have the context to understand. People I respect try to get the context and do not immediately assume the worst of those that preceded them.
Boomer hate and Zoomer hate are as equally awful.
I’m back at work after taking 2 weeks vacation. I managed to nearly finish a story I began long ago, which moved listlessly in fits and starts over time. I should be able to finish it this weekend. The basic idea is “a parallel universe only slightly different from the protagonist’s*.”
I’d have finished it, had I not tried for a week to come up first with an idea for a history fiction contest. It’s not easy to do science fiction in ancient history (and really not that interesting).
I’ve some more vacation time due, and another story I’ve been thinking of for a while.
Meantime, I made my version of onion sauce for timballo, hold the timballo, only this time in the slow cooker. I added too much water, but otherwise it came out reasonably well. One problem is that even with the valve set on release, not enough water evaporates in this appliance. I need to check whether it will work without the lid, and if so I can use a regular glass lid instead, which can be set to allow more vapor to escape.
And I found a new ingredient: dehydrated garlic (sliced). It softens up when added to liquids like sauce or soup, and infuses the garlic flavor in the dish. It’s not as good as fresh garlic, but better than garlic powder.
*It’s better than the short, misleading description sounds.
@JohnSF:
Paulie did have fabulous hair, though.
You have to give him that.
@Kathy: nope. I thought Biden gave a great speech. He joked a couple of times about being old, reminisced about his family, shared his accomplishments, touted Harris, reminded folks of the urgency of defeating Trump, and ending by quoting the song American Anthem: “America, I my best to you.”
@Kathy:
At my first job in Seattle, it was a tradition to wait for new hires from the east coast to notice that sticks of butter were a different shape, and claim that this is just what the shape of butter is everywhere. Previous transplants would confirm this, and act confused that the new hire thought butter was in a different shape.
All in a silly effort to convince the new hire that they had somehow travelled to a universe identical to their own, except for the butter.
Also, having the ocean on the wrong side seemed to mess with everyone’s sense of navigation, getting them to regularly confuse east and west. This was nearly universal, and no one could explain it. Far more baffling than the butter.
It’s not the mountains, as people from upstate New York and Ohio had the same messed up navigation. And the Florida folks were fine, having large bodies of water on either side where they grew up.
@Kathy:
I use garlic powder and, GASP!, pre-minced garlic in bad olive oil from the little flat bottles. It’s entirely okay. Saves me seven minutes.
For tacos, it works fine. Perfectly adequate.
My best advice is to spend time and money on stuff your tongue actually appreciates and discerns. Never spend extra money on something that is a minor, background note if a cheap version is available.
I have a local farmers’ market available. I buy fresh rosemary, cilantro, green onions. Occasionally basil. Only pay a premium for stuff where you can actually taste the difference.
Use fresh when it makes a difference. When it doesn’t, use cheap. No one needs 9 dollar a bottle artisinal red pepper flakes when mass produced 3 dollar Tone’s is a shelf below.
@de stijl: You would kind of hope that people who grew up with bifurcated news outlets (right wing world and reality) would be a little better at recognizing that things are often told from a point of view and that you have to dig past the surface to understand.
Hating on Boomers is ultimately an optimistic belief that the newer generations will be better.
Hating on Zoomers is like kicking puppies. Yes, they’re dumb and uncoordinated, but they’re only a couple weeks old — they’ll get better.
@Monala:
Really? I find it hard to believe God’s only begotten Felon would get a Revelation wrong.
@Gustopher:
We wait for the new hire to work on their first proposal under federal law, and then tell them the the surety bond is missing. the joke is there’s no surety bond in federal acquisitions law (there is in some states).
With the stress inherent to these projects, I fear one day we may give someone a stroke.
@de stijl:
Actually fresh garlic is best and cheapest. But I have the same problema s with celery: it’s sold in amounts larger than I can consume. and I use a lot of garlic to begin with. I wind up having to throw out half a head of garlic or more most months.
the dehydrated slices last a lot longer, and come in smaller quantities. They’re perfect for some things. I’ve even used them to infuse oil with garlic.
@steve: In a lot of tech companies, there are a half dozen interviews (same day at good places, spread out over weeks at some), and each interviewer effectively has a veto, so the entire hiring process sinks to the level of the most bigoted interviewer.
No DEI initiative is going to have significant results in that environment, since there’s almost always a bigot.
This also means that frequently the only teams that hire under-represented groups are teams that already have some. All the women cluster in one spot, this team is Chinese, etc.
I once described a team I was on as being incredibly diverse: we had straight white guys, gay white guys, bisexual white guys, a creepy white guy, atheist white guys, Christian white guys, a Mormon white guy, old white guys, young white guys, American white guys, Canadian white guys, a British white guy, a Czech white guy, and one white guy who used to be a sniper in the Russian army. Incredibly diverse. I don’t know what more you could want.
@Monala: yah! No edit button
* ended by quoting, “America, I gave my best to you.”
@Michael Reynolds:
Being canceled is not equivalent to banning books and removing them from the shelves. Please do not equate the two. I understand you’re salty. Disrespect hurts.
I live in Iowa. Books are literally being pulled off the shelves in school libraries because they violate a newly passed state law.
Over-woke pushback / criticism and outright book banning are entirely different things. Compare and contrast.
I understand criticism is painful, but it isn’t banning.
The State now has purview and control over what school district librarians can put on the bookshelves. Not the marketplace of ideas where someone could try to influence readers not to read that book, read this instead, but the actual state pulling books off shelves because law.
One of these is regrettable, but understandable. One of these is actually bad. I’ll focus on the actual bad.
@de stijl:
I’ve treated a handful of people with “psychopathy.” Most were struggling with the same old boring problems as the rest of us, just with a unique flavor.
However, a few were noteworthy and unforgettable in their, um, pathology. I was never too concerned for my own safety, but it was deeply uncomfortable to share a room with them.
Only one was the charismatic chap that you often see depicted in media. The others were anything but. All were complicated, because all were human.
@de stijl:
You’re right: it’s worse. See, when the righties pull a book off the shelf the writer gets to play hero and sell a bunch more books. I know whereof I speak, my wife just had a round of this. We secretly fucking love it. I’m still bitter at not being banned, it’s a badge of honor.
When a book is canceled it is mulched. Disappeared. A banned book exists; a canceled book ceases to exist.
Furthermore, the canceled book cancels the author as well so that the author cannot be published. Authors quit because they’ve been canceled, they make bank from being banned. As a consequence of what came to be known as toxic YA, a lot of writers bailed out of YA, many migrating to middle reader, some to adult, and some just retired.
I know the writers, I know the editors, I know the publishers, I know the interest groups, and I know the fucking business, and you don’t.
@Kathy:
The book version of Game of Thrones is interesting in that respect (disclaimer: I’ve only read the first). The chapters alternate between narrators and Martin’s technique is that there is no narrative dictation of what is bad or good, simply what promotes the characters desires or stands against them. Disorienting. Especially since at least initially the characters fall into archetypes, “Loyal to the King but not wishing to get into politics”, “Fiercely protective Mom”, “Forbidden Lovers”. You know where those stories go, but these one’s don’t.
A positive book note: Barnes and Noble is becoming Waterstonized and the results – at least in the Henderson NV – store are amazing. There was a time when consensus was that B&N would never open a new store again. Now they’re planning IIRC, 50 new stores. We’re getting a new one in Vegas shortly, raising our total bookstore count to 4 (3 B&N and one indie). That’s right, 4 entire stores for just the 2.3 million people in the county.*
Huge respect for CEO James Daunt.
*OK, this is not Boston. OTOH, we can buy booze and weed 24 hours a day. And we have many sparkly lights.
@Michael Reynolds:
Care to enlighten as to the reference?
@Michael Reynolds:
And signs proclaiming that everything is fabulous, even a pharmacy.
@steve: Well if you found that you were spending a lot of money that was doing nothing to help you reach your goals, would you keep spending it?
Everyone in this culture hates math. Love of math puts one in counterculture. In addition most people think math is for boys.
I reject both of those premises. AND I think this is a much bigger problem than Si Valley tech companies, some of whom stink, and some of whom have spent more effort than most people.
Changing things is going to require changes in how everyone thinks, not just a few executives in California.
@Michael Reynolds:
I thought reading while in the streets or any other public place was a misdemeanor in Vegas 😉 I mean, it’s not like an open alcohol container, which is just fine.
Re DEI. I suspect that people who don’t have to hire have a very different view of the process than those who do, especially in the technical fields. We have a DEI program at my small company and while it may make a difference in some other departments it has almost no impact in my engineering group, other than us not excluding anyone from consideration. I have a small team of just ten people and each one serves a very specific purpose. I don’t have the budget for spares or trainees, as we are in a race against time with respect to the competition, so I have to hire people with the skill set I need. And the number of qualified women who apply is vanishingly small, as are most minorities. So although I hired a trans woman some years ago, and it was nice that it added some diversity, it really didn’t factor into my decision. It was all about her skill set. She’s retiring now and I’ll miss her (personally and professionally, although she’s had a hard life and is so very ready to retire). Her replacement is an African American, but I’m pretty sure it’s in the sense that my parents were Irish Americans, I.e. naturalized citizens, because of his very West African name and a slight accent. I had exactly one (almost) qualified native born African American apply for the position. I would have hired her in a heartbeat but she only had about 18 months of real world experience and I need someone who can lead us in a specific technical area and she didn’t have that capability. Everyone else who applied that could be considered a diversity hire was significantly under qualified.
This is utterly reprehensible, and in a just world he’d be prosecuted under the Logan Act.
@Mikey: Good LORD. It’s not bad enough that he killed immigration reform for a completely self-serving reason, he’s now trying to do the same on an international peace issue??
Seriously, this is insane. Someone needs to smack him with a hamberder, and then prosecute him.
JFC.
@Mikey:
That strikes me as a holy shit moment. If that’s accurate it’s time to pull on Bibi’s leash hard. That is entirely unacceptable.
Like, I can kinda be fine with Trump killing the immigration deal. He’s at least the head of the opposition party (and I hated it) but this is orders of magnitude worse.
@Jen:
There is no depth to which Trump won’t descend.
MarkedMan- I think DEI fails if it is interpreted as needing to hire people who arent qualified just to meet diversity goals. I think believing in diversity means that you realize people of all color and sexual orientation can be qualified and people should be judged on their merit. I think it also means that if your customers/consumers are diverse that you are likely going to do better having a diverse workforce so it’s OK to aim for hiring workers that will make you diverse. In practical terms that means if you have 2 equally qualified people it’s OK to prefer hiring the one who will make you more diverse.
Steve
@Beth: Re: ‘if that’s accurate’…
I had that same reaction, thinking it might just be Twitter hyperbole, but the link is to a clip of Judy Woodruff reporting this little tidbit. So…
@Jen:
Something similar seems to have happened in Breaking Bad. Jesse, Gilligan said in an interview, was supposed to be a total POS who got killed off in a few episodes after getting White started in the business. The chemistry (NPI) between the actors was unforeseen, undeniable, and stunning, which changed the whole show.
@Michael Reynolds:
Are you arguing that your slight inconvenience of getting a bad review by a teenager is worse than an actual book banning?
Pretty sure Animorphs books did pretty well even after random person tried to cancel you. I understand you felt disrespected.
I will be generous and assume your pushback is cheeky fun-times about actual book banning, and not about your hurt feelings.
I live in a state where school librarians are required to pull perfectly cromulent books off the shelf because of a new state law that prohibits we hurt right-wingers feelings.
I know you are, pretty sure you are, hope you are, being cheeky and contrarian, but actual book bans are infinitely worse than being ” cancelled”. I’m super sorry someone crititzed your work once or a few times. Actually, I don’t fucking care about your hurt feelings.
Best I can do is say to not to put too much attention and importance on wack criticism. If it’s dumb and unearned everyone is just going to disregard it, anyway. You’re bringing more attention to it than it deserves. Streisand effect.
I really generally like you as a person and interlocutor, but, in my mind, you are placing way too much importance on criticism by a rando and have decided that left wing criticism is invalid. If you are okay with what you said out unto the world for other folks to read, you are way, way ahead of the game. You actually got paid to create a world that people love wholeheartedly.
There is no good way to say to someone that they need to be thicker skinned.
I dont watch speeches but Biden supposedly claimed corporate greed caused or contributed to inflation. This topic has come up off and on so I decided to look for data on it. I found data at link from CATO. Given their libertarian, pro-business, pro-rich people orientation I expected their bias to be in favor of corporations. However, by the data they present about 1/3 of the price increases we have seen over the last 4 years are due to an increase in corporate profits. That is more than i expected. I dont think corporate greed caused inflation but just looking at the data provided by CATO it looks like corporate profits contributed. (CATO concentrates on the last year or two when corporate profits are less of a factor but that seems like cherry picking to me. Looking at prices during the entire period gives, I believe, a more accurate picture.)
https://www.cato.org/commentary/new-nonsense-profit-driven-inflation
Steve
@de stijl: I’m reluctant to stick my head up here, but I’m going to. Michael’s point about getting canceled vs. banned is an important and valid one.
There are new authors who had books ‘canceled’ who now cannot get a publisher. They get branded and cast off, not because they are bad writers, but because someone took offense to what they wrote. They were good enough to get published, but now their writing careers are what? Over?
I have no problem with people who cannot write not getting book deals. I have no issue with books that fall flat and no one buys them because they are out of sync with the times. But it’s just wrong-headed for a publishing house to cower under the blankets and pulp a published book simply because someone/or a group of someones takes offense. Let the market decide. If it’s a crap book, people won’t buy it.
I’ve felt this way since American Dirt got dragged through the mud. The book didn’t do much for me at all, but the author DID NOT DESERVE the sh!tstorm, and certainly not the death threats (yes, really).
@Mikey:
I totally agree, and I don’t want to sound like I am minimizing how bad it is what he is doing, but…. I doubt it will make any difference. Bibi knows that a deal before the election will help Harris. He doesn’t need Trump to tell him that, as it’s been obvious from the get-go. It’s not like the immigration bill fiasco, as Bibi isn’t afraid of Trump the way congressional Republicans are. He’s going to do whatever he believes he needs to do to retain power, and the outcome of the American election isn’t the only factor in that equation. I’m sure he wants Trump to win, but he also realizes that may not happen and that he’ll be forced to deal with a Harris Admin in less than a year.
@Kylopod:
One thing that rubs me raw is that discourse is that certain words now have to be blanked out. It’s silly. And doesn’t even protect anyone.
We can’t say kill, die, anxiety, depression, ptsd.
I talked a half hour with a good friend of mine today who has bone cancer. We talked about the best ways to commit suicide without freaking out his family. He truly wants to check out of his terminal death sentence – has no desire to do otherwise. Why would I want to be awake longer in this intense pain? He’s up in Wisconsin. He hurts daily, he wants to check out and no one will help him.
He gave me a hard check today. When you die who is going to get your stuff, your assets? I had no answer.
A lot of social media just blanks out words some undefined folk might consider triggering or objectionable. In real life adults talk about that stuff fairly regularly. I’m not trying to trigger anyone, but I need to talk about actual real world shit. Replacing kill, die, etc. with some dumb-ass version of “unalived” is just fucking stupid.
I reject it. My friend needs a way to kill himself in the very near future. That’s the messy truth of life. He has bone cancer, ffs, it’s down to weeks even if he sees it all the through to the bitter end.
Blanking out perfectly cromulent words that are key to human expression in social media is beyond stupid.
They can pry it from my c**d, [unalived] hands. Fucking morons!
@MarkedMan: Waterstones is a famous bookstore in London England. They have a store in Cambridge also that I visited back in 2001. I could have spent the whole day there.
@de stijl:
I’m in full agreement with you on this. I got screamed at in a trans discord because I refuse to use a spoiler tag (a black bar you click on to reveal what is underneath) unless it’s an actual spoiler or is either pornographic or non-porn nudity. Today someone covered up the word “Tavern” in the FREAKING NAME OF A RESTAURANT. Like, what is someone with addiction issues gonna see the word tavern and go well, time to start drinking again. It’s the height of petulant stupidity.
When it comes to suicide, I am a suicidal person. Intensely suicidal. B ut me being suicidal is just a boring fact about me, like I’m tall or have blue eyes. I find the use of bs words or covers to hide talk about suicide to be deeply offensive, infantilizing and an attempt to make suicide shameful. I hate it.
A friend of mine just killed herself and the circles people have worked themselves into to avoid saying that she killed herself have been worse than just saying that.
And just to be clear, I am not currently actively suicidal. But I was from about February to May of this year. I’ve done a lot of work to understand what it means to be suicidal and to know what my triggers are and how to manage them. I might not be actively suicidal, but I always have a way out. I refuse to be ashamed of that.
@Jen: When I was writing my thesis, I encountered an article in which Budd Schulberg was dismayed upon discovering that students at Wharton had invited him to speak because they saw What Makes Sammy Run? as a how-to manual and wanted further insights in to how to use Sammy Glick’s “method” to get ahead.
I think Sammy Glick and Alex Keaton as role models are simply an insight to the degree to which corporatism is still a significant guiding force in our political, economic, and social structures. We’ve never become the Center Left nation that Dr. Joyner laments that we’ve become. We’re not even close. And did I mention that greed is good? It makes the nation what it has become, you know.
@Beth:
Whatever you do, do not use the term “paranoid schizophrenic” to refer to someone who is, in fact, a paranoid schizophrenic. If you do, Mimai will be deeply chagrined and remonstrate with you for it. You must rather refer to an individual suffering from paranoid schizophrenia.
@DK:
Yeah. Good luck with that at the exact moment that Boomers as a cohort are starting to lapse into early-onset Alzheimer’s.
@Jen:
Is that worse than actual book banning?
Seriously, WTF?
Yes, book banning is exponentially worse than pre-publication feedback that we don’t want to publish your work.
You are making a case, very marginal, btw, that publishers are obligated to publish, produce, distribute, market works they don’t want to be associated with. There are other publishers, other ways to get that out into the world.
Being banned is non-negotiable. I see that as much more scary. The State says we cannot provide these books to school children. Those ideas are not allowed. I’m failing to see why the marketplace deciding not to publish a work is worse than a state ban.
My position is about the diffusion of ideas rather than how it might effect potential book sales, which I don’t care about at all.
I think giving the state control over school libraries is an absolutely terrifying concept to the point that I can’t even give your argument a fair shot at all.
Let’s address soft bans after addressing hard state bans based on ideas. Priorities, people!
I don’t know why this idea is contentious.
@Bill Jempty: Spider Man 2 worked well as a story, given that it was planning to kill off the villain. Superhero movies are suffering from a surfeit of supply. There are too many of them and the tone of the original product has become darker as various authors have tried to out-FrankMiller Frank Miller making the movies themselves maybe not escapist enough. Willful suspension of disbelief may well be harder to achieve than it seems to be. I’m reading a detective/murder mystery right now that is becoming more unbelievable as I progress. I’ll finish this one just to see how he wraps it up, but I’ll not read number 2 in the series.
@CSK:
Ha! Nice callback.
I will add that not everyone with paranoid schizophrenia suffers. But I’m only shallowly chagrined by that notion 😉
I don’t understand how anyone can seriously say that canceling is worse than book banning. Canceling sucks in many cases, book banning by the government is worse. Because it is the government.
@Mister Bluster: I had my first anti-spam crawler alert on my desktop today when I posted my comment on the Phil Donahue thread. Up to today I’ve only had them on my phone. Usually one a day.
@Mimai:
Oh, go succor the afflicted. 😀
RFK campaign straight up admitting that they’re just a republican ratfucking operation:
RFK Jr. running mate outlines ‘two options’: Drop out and back Trump or ‘risk’ Harris win
@Gustopher: They’re not elongated square prisms (as in not cubes) on the east coast? What shape are they? Sheets? Globes? Triangular prisms? With notches in them like Toblerones? Sausage shaped? 2×4 shaped? Now I’m intrigued. (I spent a week in Virginia at my brothers 40 or so years ago, so I don’t remember whether I went to a grocer or not.)
Speaking of depressing publishing news: According to Variety, J.D. Vance is getting an 8 million dollar advance for the sequel to Hillbilly Elegy.
@Gustopher:
Yeah, we thought that, too. Still I wish you luck (and note that the bar isn’t even very high 🙁 ).
@CSK:
The depressing part is there’s a publisher who thinks such a book would make more than the money they are advancing.
Do Republiqans buy many books?
@MarkedMan: Waterstones appears to be a large UK bookstore chain/conglomerate owned by a venture capital company. Give it another decade for them to cannibalize whatever the conglomerate has become and start selling the real estate.
@Just nutha ignint cracker:
I found this with a photo.
@Jen: Not new though. I remember something similar back in 1979 or early 80. Does this one involve bribes too?
@Just nutha ignint cracker: I must admit, I’ve been in the hayfield all day and this thought has crossed my mind waaaay more than I expected. I mean….what shape IS the butter on the East Coast?!
@CSK: No, that’s not depressing, merely an acknowledgement that 1) there is a sucker born every minute, 2) publishing has a surplus capital problem (in the Marxist sense of not having enough justifiable means to use it), and 3) taking a mark is like shearing a sheep–beneficial for both parties.
@Kathy: Thanks. I’m really surprised that what Gustopher describes would work as a prank, but I don’t know a lot about how credulous and arrogant about their own knowledge base techies are.
@Mimai:
My understanding, layman’s perspective, is that psychopathy is no longer a DSM thing.
There’s now the dark tetrad: machiavellianism, narcissistic, psychopathic, sadistic.
I know I get vibes off of negative personality types easier than neutral or positive folks. I volunteer at a homeless shelter giving out towels, toothpaste, shampoo, liquid soap, etc.
I can peg with about 90% certainty folks who are going to cause a big problem that will cause all able bodied folks on duty to swarm.
Every now and again someone who presents as pleasant and benign will act out, but fairly rarely.
I understand we are animals and have instincts, but it is spooky that I can peg a future problem person just by eyeballing them. I can’t even tell you why – gait, posture, body language, eye contact, mien, general demeanor. You can just tell. I don’t know, but I know.
Every now and again someone I’d slotted into the “good” pile acts out hard if pushed too far, but almost always it’s the scary folks. My brain noted them as such within a few seconds. It’s spooky how accurate instinct can be.
In a shelter, you get all kinds of folks. It is my duty to serve everyone. If you want a towel, morning bathroom stuff, etc. I’ve got you covered.
Best cheap donations to a local shelter would be Q-tips, cheap razors, toothpaste.
Dearly awesome folks come to give haircuts and beard trims every few weeks. One local shop teams up with school kids. Sometimes I get emotionally overwhelmed by being there. I can hide it pretty well, mostly. I go for friendly but stoic. I pretend I’ve seen this shit for years instead of months.
I see folks out and about and give them a fistbump and a hearty howdy.
@Jax: From what Kathy explained, butter on the EC comes in the same types of square-ish boxes that margarine comes in now where I live with the sticks stacked four vertically rather than 2×2. Big whoop.
@de stijl:
I’m with you on this. This was not like The Godfather, where mob guys were presented as royalty. The Spoprano’s was about ordinary people who became career criminals. To present them as ‘evolved’ regarding feminism, homosexuality, etc, would have been a big mistake.
That said, some of my favorite episodes involved Tony’s periodic visits with his psychiatrist, Lorraine Bracco. I loved the interplay and the tension, and how Bracco handled Tony’s aggressive tone.Great show.
@de stijl:My feelings on this are pretty basic.
Don’t tell readers what they can read.
Don’t tell writers what they can write.
And no, I am not suggesting that publishers be required to publish books they don’t want to. I am asking them to stand up for the writers they deemed good enough TO publish.
That really isn’t a big ask.
@Just nutha ignint cracker:
It may be Gustopher just hoped it might work.
Log time ago, when someone asked me “can I ask you something?” I’d reply “eight.” This had the effect of unsettling colleagues bothering me at work. But, as I explained to one coworker, I figured one time the answer to their question would be “eight,” and they’d be astonished I knew it in advance of the question (I get odd moments like that sometimes).
It never was “eight.”
BTW, parallel universe is a popular explanation for the Mandela Effect.
On an unrelated matter, lately Copilot has been ending all answers with questions or comments that prompt further conversation. I think it’s a tactic by Microsoft to get people to help train their AI more. Just the same, I tend to feel I’m being rude if I change the subject or just close the window.
On the other hand, sometimes the prompt gets me thinking. So it’s not all bad.
@MarkedMan:
I hope you’re keeping people cross trained, or you’re going to be screwed when one of them gets a job elsewhere.
I kept trying to explain this to my last boss, as I was the only one at the company who knew how the freakish service written in weird language and framework by outside consultants. He didn’t get the hint, and when I left, there was no one.
@de stijl:I miss the edit button…
If you read my comment closely, I was not weighing in on the this ban is worse than that ban discussion. I am making the point that a small group of loud voices shouldn’t dictate who gets published and who doesn’t.
Some of these are just bent out of shape authors, angry at the world. That they are being granted immense power to destroy other authors is gross.
@Just nutha ignint cracker: No one would ever believe that anyone would lie about the shape of butter. It’s too mundane to be a lie.
And then they begin to question their own memory — it’s close enough that maybe they were just wrong. If they can’t be sure about the shape of a stick of butter, when they’ve seen them thousands of times, what can they be sure of?
And it’s not like the brands are different. There will be the same brands, very similar packaging, and a different aspect ratio. Different enough that people would notice, and eventually mention it at the lunch table.
It’s a slow burn. First you gaslight them on butter, and then… we never really had a part two, or at least I wasn’t privy to it. Maybe part two was just them wondering what the hell was wrong with people that they would lie about the shape of butter?
We had one guy who had some East Coast butter shipped to the office on dry ice to prove us all wrong. That felt like a victory.
@de stijl: I wonder if perhaps (and maybe he’s already addressed this in a comment I haven’t seen yet) that Michael isn’t referring to the cancellation of someone at his level of longevity and success, but newer authors whose first book out the gate is cancelled because something about the content or the author offended someone. Those are the writers who might not get another chance.
@MarkedMan:
From ChatGPT: The term “Waterstonized” in this context seems to refer to Barnes & Noble adopting practices or a style reminiscent of Waterstones, the well-known British bookstore chain. Waterstones is praised for its focus on creating a pleasant, curated, and reader-friendly environment, often with a strong emphasis on staff recommendations, well-organized displays, and a cozy atmosphere.
@Jen: If publishing companies had any idea of what they wanted to publish other than “something that sells,” then they wouldn’t be swayed by four cranks complaining that the furry representation or whatever is not authentic.
But, the creative industries tend to be very haphazard, fickle and skittish.
And there have been enough times when they have published something amazingly racist that was likely meant with the best of all possible intentions that they might be wary. Like naming the only Asian character in a series “Cho Chang” or making an Irish wizard named Seamus Flannigan who turns water to whiskey.
(And in television, I was always amused by the “Native American Consultant” who worked on Star Trek: Voyager to help keep Chakotay authentic, but who knew nothing about Native Americans and so just shoved in a bunch of mismatched stereotypes)
@Kathy: I moved from the East Coast to the West Coast over a decade ago, and I had no idea. I mean, I noticed that butter sticks here were shaped differently, but I assumed that was an overall change in the market, akin to the way beverage bottles have changed shape. I had no idea that it was regional!
@steve:
Just to be clear, I wasn’t implying that. But I think a lot of people that don’t have to recruit and hire automatically assume that if you don’t have a diverse workforce it’s because you are bigoted at worst, or not trying at best. I also think that people in general dramatically overestimate the percentage of various groups in the population, except women. My group of ten has one African American (not counting the guy who hasn’t joined yet), and that is right in line with the percentage of African Americans in the population. But I suspect that the average person thinks it’s 30-40%. According to statistics my group is as diverse as the population, except for women. But I simply don’t get many women applicants. I have two women now, but will be down to one after the retirement and the other is a project manager, something that has a much higher percentage of women. I can’t snap my fingers and have woman engineers magically start sending us their resumes.
To add to this discussion about authors being cancelled: there are folks in the social justice space that are promoting “calling in” rather than calling out and cancellation, because the latter doesn’t give people the opportunity to grow and change. See Loretta Ross, for example.
@de stijl:
I don’t know how to do a gentle nudge on the Internet, but I hope you take this as such and not as a slam: Perhaps the reason you don’t see why your idea is contentious is that you aren’t really listening to what Michael is saying. He is a prolific author in YA who is telling you that colleagues have literally had their careers ended because of cancellation, while his wife, an even more prolific kids lit and YA author, has seen her sales increase because of banning. You may want to consider that he has worthwhile real world perspective on this.
@Lucysfootball:
This strikes me as a worthwhile POV. While Michael is talking about the effects on individual authors, you are talking about the effects on society as a whole. Those two POVs aren’t incompatible.
@Jax:
I think Tobleron shaped butter is a brilliant idea. Or Hershey’s minis – four little, precise amounts.
There is no rational reason that butter comes in sticks beyond tradition. That used to the the most economical way to mass produce butter – in quarter pound sticks and then into a sleeve with three siblings.
I’m a Land O’ Lakes guy, myself.
@Gustopher:
To the extent possible. But I can’t cross train my one Linux guy on how to design a handle for a probe. Or my OS-less firmware guy to do what my manufacturing specialist is doing. When one of them suddenly leaves we take the hit and do the best we can. Microsoft has thousands of people whose skills are roughly interchangeable and cross training might make sense. For small, specialized teams this isn’t as feasible. And such teams aren’t solely a function of small companies. I’ve worked in such teams in companies with $20B annual revenue.
@MarkedMan:
Dude! In my state! Right now. Today. State censorship of school libraries. Does no one care?
I’m actually flummoxed at the pushback on this. I don’t understand it. Idaho passed a very similar law a few months back.
I would think that actual state fucking censorship would take precedence over score settling and hypotheticals. You know, real world state driven censorship of what young people might want to read in the US today.
But then, I am old school on this.
@de stijl:
Yes. I care. I’m pretty sure we all care.
How does that make what Michael said wrong?
@Just nutha ignint cracker:..Anti Spam Crawler…
Welcome to the club. So far this time around these pop ups have just been a nuisance that I have been able to chase off by reloading my browser on my laptop or reloading the OTB site on my iPhone. I don’t see it on any other web page but OTB (so far). I do not know if it is just coincidence that this pest showed up right after the great migration.
If it is really combatting spam I guess I should tolerate it.
@Kylopod: The old TV shows always had to portray their bad guys as crusty…but benign. Archie was ultimately harmless. Fonzi wasn’t quite harmless but pretty darn close, and we who have been in some rough neighborhoods know the real Fonzies sure as hell weren’t. What made The Sopranos different was Tony was absolutely not benign. Established, certainly by choice, in the very first scene.
@MarkedMan:
Bad gotcha question.
When I try to address a problem I rank and prioritize tasks. I address the most salient problem first.
Woke lefties bothering established, extremely wealthy authors via TikTok bullshit is not my number one priority. It’s like c31 task at best. I don’t fucking care. In our system, that’s a feature not a bug. People will kvetch about stupid shit and try to amplify their viewpoint. As is their right.
State censorship of school libraries is my A1 task.
What can I do about it? Jack shit mostly. I can vote. I can e-mail my state representative. I can donate. I can try as best I can to make sure the law is repealed in the next session and our current governor and legislature are seem as assholes and laughed at.
One thing I know how to do is prioritize my task list.
@Kathy: re: this story of 8 – when I was a college junior, I came to math class late one day. It was a course on vector fields, so there was a lot of differentiating over curves. As I opened the door, the professor was finishing an example problem on the board, and I gave him the chance to say, “…And off course (ptfe) can tell you the answer is…”
I shrugged and guessed – I mean, a guided guess, but still just some number from the ether – 3 pi.
He looked at the board, looked at me, shook his head, sighed, and said in the most defeated tone, “That’s right.”
David Brooks, not too long ago:
Biden’s economy is broken! I was at the airport and spent $78 on a burger and a few whiskeys!
David Brooks, tonight:
The speakers at the DNC are talking about affordable health care, affordable housing, affordable education. Where’s the serious discussion of the economy!
@Gustopher: I’m having problems understand why anyone would care about the shape of butter sticks. Maybe I worked in wholesale food service too long and have responded WGAF to irate customers complaining about the bags the French fries came in being different from last time.
@anjin-san: Sort of like the first Barnes and Noble stores that opened in Seattle back in (I think) the 90s?
And Borders Books?
@de stijl: I think one pound bricks were first, followed by quarter pound sticks that happened to be one cup measures.
@Mister Bluster: It’s three seconds. It takes me longer than that to position the cursor on the “post comment” button.
I don’t know why people are having the tool recycle though. Haven’t experienced that at all.
@MarkedMan:
Waterstones is the UK equivalent of B&N, just much, much better. I’d say that even if Waterstones had not been very good to me over the years. B&N brought over the Waterstones CEO to fix itself. And amazingly, he has. He gives local stores more flexibility, less top-down, more autonomy. And he fills his stores with. . . this is controversial . . . books. I have found myself avoiding B&N as depressing, but I could plant myself at the Waterstones Piccadilly for days. Books everywhere. And a bar on the fifth floor.
@de stijl:
In my city they are discussing a new proposal that could become a law easily about essentially criminalizing homelessness. You would not be able to camp in the nooks and crannies the city leaves in its wake. Now, you would be cited and fined at the bare minimum.
I understand the general pop’s recalcitrance – having homeless folks in your neighborhood is stressing.
The question that never leaves my mind is that if you essentially criminalize homelessness, where do you expect them to go? That is the question.
I’ve only volunteered at the main Des Moines shelter since May. I know this for certain: there are 100 dormitory style bunk beds for adult men. There are 50 beds for women. Overflow sleeps on the floor of the common room. On concrete. If you mind your p’s and q’s, volunteer to clean, be a good citizen, you’ll probably get a bed after about five days.
Every day is overflow and people sleeping in the common area. 30 to 50 people beyond the 150 that have an assigned bed. Most get a blanket if they have enough.
It’s smart to queue up early.
Hope Mission up on 6th has another 60 beds for adult males. There are other shelters and beds specifically for women or minors, all told about a hundred beds.
If all the shelter beds are filled – and they definitely are (the waiting period is a about five days for a man to get a bed) where exactly should people go?
I’ve never been there, but there is a “campground” shelter. You have to check in. Sanctioned by the city but totally unregulated, survival of the fittest. Mostly run by meth-heads who’ve been there the longest as I’ve been told. It’s almost a cult.
I’d never dealt with meth addicted folks before, not all meth-heads are homeless, and a fairly small fraction of homeless are meth-heads. But some are.
The ones that are are spooky. In a lot of instances there is no there there anymore. It’s like Alzheimer’s. It rots the brain, definitely. This I have seen with my own two eyes.
I get there at 4 AM three times a week and hand out shower stuff. Last week we gave out shaving cream in tiny little plastic cups. First come, first served. Like with toothpaste. My empathy meter pegged hard that day. If you wanted a dry, unused, laundered towel you had to hit my station up before 6:15 AM. After that, you’re fucked.
There is a guy passed out in the shower stall? Message the floor staff.
The living conditions in the shelter I volunteer at are basic. It’s a roof. Three meals. Heat or AC. An actual bed if you’ve stayed there for about 5 or 6 nights and hadn’t got on the bad side of the floor staff – piss them off, annoy them enough and you’ll sleep on the floor for 8 days.
If there are no shelters available where are they supposed to go?
Some folks only use the shelters as a place to shower and get a meal. Most meals they serve about 300 folks. The excess are campers. The food mostly comes from donations. I’ve worked in the kitchen. It’s really basic. They often plan around delivering a 700 calorie meal 3 times a day. It makes elementary school lunch look like a Michelin starred restaurant. The food served is technically not garbage. I know that in the evening meal, a lot of time church or civic groups will bring in food and volunteer servers. I’m not religious myself, but God bless those kind souls.
I highly recommend it. Volunteering at a homeless shelter, that is. It is soul fulfilling and way edgier than other vol gigs. I enjoy it. Later in the day I see folks downtown and I get fistbumps and peace signs. You get what you give.
@de stijl:
First time? Lol
The peanut gallery here is different on certain things, unique. I dare say we are a bit weird, around here, on certain niche subjects.
So. Sometimes best you can do you just raise your eyebrows and think, ‘Oh that’s an interesting perspective.’
(I agree with you, btw.)
@de stijl: I’m a library trustee. There are few things that set me off so much as attempts to remove or censor books.
I think what I have a problem with is the either/or, rather than both aspect. Current censorship efforts by the states are book removal efforts (which, for the record, I abhor and would do everything in my power to oppose and prevent). Technically speaking, they are not book bans, because the books ARE still available. (And books that are targeted for removal tend to have sales jump.) No state (yet?) has called for the actual destruction of books, and no state (yet?) has called for the jailing of an author.
There’s a way to address “actual state fucking censorship,” in the first amendment. It’s a huge pain in the ass that we have to go to court over something so basic, but there IS a remedy. There are no such protections for the mob mentalities that are–decidedly NOT hypothetically–ruining the lives and careers of authors, whose books are now no longer available as a result.
To once again be utterly crystal clear: I detest book removal efforts. They are un-American and violate the first amendment, not to mention they are unnecessary and frequently counterproductive. It is this last point that is the kernel to focus on: they are counterproductive. Book bans frequently make a book more popular.
That is not the case for the cancelling mob mentality, which has destroyed careers.
@de stijl: Nitrogen “escape bag”..