Wednesday’s Forum

FILED UNDER: Open Forum
Steven L. Taylor
About Steven L. Taylor
Steven L. Taylor is a retired Professor of Political Science and former College of Arts and Sciences Dean. His main areas of expertise include parties, elections, and the institutional design of democracies. His most recent book is the co-authored A Different Democracy: American Government in a 31-Country Perspective. He earned his Ph.D. from the University of Texas and his BA from the University of California, Irvine. He has been blogging since 2003 (originally at the now defunct Poliblog). Follow Steven on Twitter

Comments

  1. de stijl says:

    As a wee kid, I’d gone on deer hunting trips before as a tag along. Marginally useful for a drive. Up in way north Wisconsin. Between Wascott and Minong up in the primordial pine forest.

    A drive is a bunch of folks in a line keeping good separation about twenty yards apart walking through the woods hoopin’ and hollerin’ driving the deer towards the shooters ahead.

    I went hunting deer with a rifle once. I killed a deer pretty up-close. Maybe 15 yards. With a Winchester model 18blahtiblah, no idea, lever action, tube fed 30-30.

    I was close. Maybe 15 yards. He wasn’t dead yet. Aspirating bloody foam out of his mouth. Bellowing as loud as he could. I can still hear it today if I listen hard. Replicate the sound. Took like about a minute or two to die. Fuck me, that was brutal.

    Man, I’d fucked up so hard. I killed this gentle creature dead just because. I had no real need for the meat, and no ability to process it. I was 15.

    I dragged it back to the car. My uncle hoisted him up and slit him open and spilled his guts on the ground. I was fronting like I was paying attention and learning as to how to gut a deer, but I was mostly checked out. I already knew that I had over-stepped greatly in the big scheme.

    Yeah, no.

    I knew immediately that I had fucked up really hard. That deer did not need to die. I pulled the trigger. I made that happen. Meant it to happen. Made it happen.

    My uncle got some venison.

    Yeah, never again. Not for me.

    10
  2. de stijl says:

    What is the purpose of the interegnum between election day and Jan. 20th?

    I’d assume orderly transfer of power. Onboarding. Training your replacement. Is that it? Not for the President, but for the political hirelings in cabinet posts.

    I assume it is to count the votes and to verify. Seems too long, but back then people used horses for travel.

    3
  3. Liberal Capitalist says:

    @de stijl:

    What is the purpose of the interegnum between election day and Jan. 20th?

    Clearly, for this incoming administration, it is to document how many times they choose to slip on their own carefully placed banana peels (seeing many of their no-skill appointees shot down), and also to count the times that they now deny all the statements that they made as campaign promises.

    Example:

    Then – Trump, in a campaign stop in Pennsylvania, promised to lower grocery prices once elected.

    Now – “I’d like to bring them down. It’s hard to bring things down once they’re up. You know, it’s very hard.”

    Shampoo, rinse, repeat.

    3
  4. Jen says:

    @de stijl:

    What is the purpose of the interregnum between election day and Jan. 20th?

    In days when news traveled by horse, it used to take much, much longer for information to flow, and for the electors to travel to DC.

    4
  5. Tony W says:

    @Jen: I suppose once we had railroads we moved the inauguration from March to January.

    Sounds like we are due for another change. Maybe Trump can add this to his EC-destruction, birthright citizenship destruction, two-term limit POTUS destruction amendment?

    3
  6. Tony W says:

    Will we eventually get an official court ruling yet on the minimum net worth required for a person’s murder to be considered “terrorism”?

    13
  7. Mikey says:

    @Tony W: I know, right?

    A few dozen elementary school kids get blown away by AR-15s and it’s “thoughts and prayers” and nothing else, but one CEO gets capped and suddenly its “lets move heaven and earth to protect these Very Important Men.”

    Apparently New York wants to set up a special hotline for CEOs to call if they feel threatened. I say we just issue them each a bulletproof backpack and a card that says “thoughts and prayers” that they can read to themselves if they think someone is lurking around the corner.

    11
  8. gVOR10 says:

    @Tony W: The originalist Supremes found in the Constitution a principle of immunity for the prez that escaped everyone for 200 plus years. As the corporatist takeover continues I expect the Federalist justices to find immunity also applies to major corporate CEOs. Doesn’t the same principle apply, that by golly they’re just too important and too busy to be bothered by claims they’ve hurt the little people?

    6
  9. Kathy says:

    @de stijl:
    @Jen:
    @Tony W:

    There’s also inertia. Things are done how they’ve been done and change only slowly and, often, with difficulty.

    There’s this customer that didn’t ask for samples years ago when we first went after their contract. Instead they wanted photos of the products. Later they instituted samples, The photos of the products remain a requirement, though now they serve no useful function.

    Both campaigns maintain a transition staff long before election day. They could both prepare for their term so they can take over in a couple of weeks after the election. This would run into some states penchant for slow counting the vote, though. And the Byzantine EC rules that require electors to meet and vote, and Congress to count the votes, and so on. Still, there’s no reason a new term could not begin a month after the election.

    Frankly, though, we’d all feel somewhat better if the felon’s term required a longer transition, say seven million years.

    2
  10. gVOR10 says:

    @Kathy: I read a classic in some management consultant book years ago. A company in Hong Kong had a warehouse on the mainland. They phoned shipping orders from headquarters on the island to the warehouse, then sent a paper copy by courier. On digging into it, the consultants found the practice dated back to 1941 when the invading Japanese cut the phone lines.

    3
  11. Kathy says:

    In between al the work, I figured out my ending. Curiously the addition replaces some dialogue, so it doesn’t increase the length. And the rest really feels sufficient to me, it just needs two dialogue changes.

    Bad news is we had a work landslide, and I’ll likely need to come in Saturday and Sunday. I am still determined to finish and submit it. Then I can worry about lacking the time to write another.

    Meantime, I want to try a white garlic pasta sauce using milk, cottage cheese, yogurt, and maybe a little butter, plus garlic. This would go with fettuccine placed atop chicken milanesas.

    1
  12. Kathy says:

    @gVOR10:

    We adopted the fax machine early, and it was quite an improvement before the email era. In time we got a fax modem, meaning we could fax Word documents directly without printing them. It took a lot to convince my dad, the boss at that company, to stop printing stuff we were faxing.

  13. Rob1 says:

    About all that “weaponization and lawfare” outrage by the Rebublicans …. again, a case of projecting their intent.

    One has to wonder about the moral framework of those who see do-gooders as a threat.

    Trump planning to target progressive non-profits, US watchdog warns

    Donald Trump and his Republican allies are planning to target progressive groups they perceive as political enemies in a sign of deepening “authoritarianism”, a US watchdog has warned.

    The president-elect could potentially use the justice department and Internal Revenue Service (IRS) to target non-profits and researchers, launch politically motivated investigations and pass legislation to restrict their activities.

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/dec/18/trump-non-profits-watchdog

    3
  14. Fortune says:

    @Rob1: What fact from the article made you want to post it?

    2
  15. CSK says:

    Per NBC, the House is going to release its report on the Matt Gaetz investigation.

  16. Mister Bluster says:

    AUTHORIZATION NOTICE!
    ALL COMMENTERS ON OTB ARE NOW REQUIRED TO GET CLEARANCE FROM Fortune BEFORE OPINIONS ARE EXPRESSED ON THIS SITE!

    11
  17. CSK says:

    @Mister Bluster:

    😀 😀 😀

    5
  18. Fortune says:

    @Mister Bluster: We’re not supposed to communicate on an open thread?

    2
  19. Rob1 says:

    @Fortune:

    @Rob1: What fact from the article made you want to post

    What fact from the article made you curious as to my wanting to post the article?

    2
  20. Fortune says:

    @Rob1: There weren’t many facts in the article which is what caught my attention.

    3
  21. CSK says:

    Trump has selected Herschel Walker to be his ambassador to the Bahamas.

  22. Matt Bernius says:

    @Fortune:
    Maybe we have a different definition of facts, but it seems like there are more than enough facts in that article.

    Perhaps what you mean are facts in which someone explicitly says they are going to definitely and positively attack non-profits/tax-exempt organizations versus facts that demonstrate a pattern that it appears likely that the Trump administration will investigate non-profits/tax-exempt organizations.

    I will admit that there are more facts patterns that fit the latter definition than the initial one (though there are some of those too). For example:

    Trump has nominated individuals with a record of targeting non-profits they disagree with to key positions, including Billy Long for IRS commissioner and Pam Bondi for attorney general. Kash Patel, Trump’s nominee for FBI director, has vowed to “come after” media outlets and non-profits that he claims “helped Joe Biden rig presidential elections”.

    [MB comment: those all seem like legitimate facts about both nominations and past behavior of said nominees. Or are you saying they should have provided specific examples for Long and Bondi.

    Congressional Republicans have a history of targeting non-profits including charities, advocacy groups and universities, the CIP says. This includes recently seeking to investigate and restrict the activities of tax-exempt organisations supporting causes they oppose.

    [Again: this seems like a solid set of facts that speak to the coming political environment. Perhaps you really mean fact confirmation.]

    Josh Hawley, a Republican senator and Trump ally, has called for the justice department to shut down organisations backing protests involving civil disobedience. Senator JD Vance, now vice-president-elect, introduced a bill to withdraw federal support and impose a 50% excise tax on universities that fail to stop student protests.

    [I guess you could argue that Hawley doesn’t have the power to drive this foward, though again Justice will probably be led by Pam Bondi who doesn’t appear to be opposed to this. Also don’t you think that something the Vice President is calling for ISN’T an important contextual fact?]

    FWIW, this has been a BIG discussion within the non-profit community for quite a while–especially after the election. Here’s an example of the ongoing dialog (which has more historic facts that speak to why people are concerned: https://theberkshireedge.com/business-perspectives-president-trump-and-the-nonprofit-sector/

    3
  23. Mister Bluster says:

    @Fortune:..communicate

    Please show me where I have restricted your speech on these threads.
    I can’t. I am not a moderator for OTB.

    2
  24. Grommit Gunn says:

    My relocation and job change took one big step forward today. We woke up in the Land of Enchantment the morning, and real estate listing on the house in Texas goes up for sale this afternoon. Gig at the new college starts in a couple of weeks.

    I don’t know what will happen on Jan 20, but I do know that I already feel more at ease being in a place not governed by the Texas GOP.

    9
  25. Jax says:

    @Grommit Gunn: Congrats on the move and job change!

    6
  26. Fortune says:

    @Matt Bernius: The article mostly repeats a CIP accusation then posts a fact or broad characterization that’s only slightly related. Like “Fears have been raised by the Trump second term agenda’s considerable overlap with Project 2025, a policy blueprint from the Heritage Foundation think tank that includes plans to attack non-profits, researchers and civil society groups that have challenged election denial narratives.” I just searched the Project 2025 report and it isn’t in there. And phrases like “fears have been raised” aren’t journalism.

    The article worries about, or says that the CIP worries about, the new administration abusing power. Billy Long called for an IRS investigation into the Humane Society’s lobbying. That’s not an abuse of power. I don’t know what Pam Bondi is accused of. In 2023 Kash Patel said “we’re going to come after the people in the media who lied about American citizens, who helped Joe Biden rig presidential elections…Whether it’s criminally or civilly, we’ll figure that out.” That was a year before the election. It doesn’t indicate abuse of power.

    It’s true that the CIP said the quote but there’s no indication Republicans have gone after non-profits etc. more than Democrats.

    Hawley and Vance are cited as examples of moving against causes they disagree with but they moved against civil disobedience and student protests.

  27. Fortune says:

    @Mister Bluster: Good news I’m not a moderator for OTB either. So neither of us need each other’s clearance.

  28. DAllenABQ says:

    @Grommit Gunn: Welcome to New Mexico.

    3
  29. Kathy says:

    @CSK:

    I wonder what the felon has against Bahamians.

    1
  30. Mister Bluster says:

    @Grommit Gunn:..Land of Enchantment!
    I’ve road tripped through New Mexico many times over the years. First time was in January of 1971 when I hitchhiked on US Route 66/I-40 traveling from California to Saint Louis. On my cross country drives I’ve stayed at the Super 8 in Grants, Gallup, Albuquerque and Santa Rosa on I-40 and Las Vegas on I-25.
    Somewhere along I-40 (Grants? Gallup?) I discovered a local place that was in an old fast food store front right off the interstate that had the best!!! breakfast burritos and the tastiest!!! salsa and pickled radishes this side of Ensenada! I stopped there several times.

    3
  31. Grommit Gunn says:

    @Mister Bluster: Nice! I am looking forward to new adventures and exploration.

  32. Matt Bernius says:

    @Fortune:
    Ok, that confirms the perspective I thought you were taking. I agree that the article is largely reporting on CIS claims.

    Obviously, people’s milage with this will vary. And I also think that the details are kind of critical. So let’s take one example:

    Billy Long called for an IRS investigation into the Humane Society’s lobbying.

    It appears that it’s a bit more than what you portrayed. From one website:

    Now, Seventh District Congressman Billy Long has stepped into the fray, doing his best to make sure one of his biggest contributors is never bothered again.

    Long and five of his colleagues, four from Missouri, Republicans Vicky Hartzler, Blaine Luetkemeyer, Sam Graves, and Jo Ann Emerson, and Rep. Don Young, R-Alaska, signed a letter to the Inspector General asking that the Humane Society of the United States lose its tax exempt status.

    The six representatives claim the Humane Society is spending much of its money on lobbying and political activities, including contributing $2.1 million of the $4.8 million that went into the organization promoting passage of Proposition B.

    FEC documents indicate Billy Long has received $4,800 from Andrew Hunte, president of The Hunte Company, Goodman, a puppy mill operation. The money has come in the form of identical $800 contributions on Oct. 12, Oct. 19, Nov. 2, Feb. 7, March 4, and March 31.

    https://rturner229.blogspot.com/2011/05/billy-long-recipient-of-thousands-from.html

    For what it’s worth, 501c4’s are able to engage in limited political activity (this, btw, was the crux of attacks on the IRS’s decision to incorrectly investigate many of them early on in the Obama administration). Again, YMMV, but the idea that the Humane Society of America–given the scope of its operations–is substantially a lobbying organization is rediculous.

    Or to put it a different way, the National Rifle Administration is also a 501c4 and is as much involved in politics as the Humane Society. However Long decided to go after the Humane Society.

    Again, we have yet to see how this plays out once the administration is in power, but I definitely know of 501c3’s and 501c4 that are concerned about what the Trump administration will mean for their status.

    I have to look into the Project 2025 claim.

    2
  33. dazedandconfused says:
  34. de stijl says:

    @DAllenABQ:

    I miss the blue meth. That Heisenberg fella knew how to cook.

    2
  35. de stijl says:

    There is something up in that northern primordial pine forest that is gorgeously haunting. Boreal forest, taiga. Dense, deep, and dark.

    You look up and see only green. Blue is a privilege you need to walk to. There are ponds and swamps wherever there is a dip in the ground. And there, blue sky.

    You have to seek out and earn blue sky by walking forward. It’ll happen.

    I would gratefully decompose there. That’d be a nice end.

    1
  36. Kathy says:

    Xlon God Mars Cisgender of Emperor Phobos wants a government shutdown starting on Friday Dec. 20th.

    Figures.

    Merry Xmas, little people!

    1
  37. de stijl says:

    @de stijl:

    Yeah, it’s probably not cool to joke about meth.

    I volunteer at a homeless shelter downtown. We see that a lot. Of things you can get addicted to, meth is bottom tier as far as carry-on / carry-over effects. It’s insidious. It’s spooky. There is a thing where people will chew basically air. It’s sad. Unsettling. Chomp, chomp. Freaks me out.

    Some of my favorite people there are addicts or alcoholics. When they are straight, they are cool af, and then when they go out and get high or drunk and come back in the shelter, and they’re just the most miserable assholes looking to antagonize and make trouble. Good folks acting like idiots. It’s very sad.

    Too many people want to throw down over the stupidest shit. To the point they get bounced for a day, a week, or forever. They’re looking for any opportunity, I swear. For a lot of folks drama = life.

    Getting bounced for a day means you walk around all night so you don’t freeze to death.

    1
  38. Mikey says:

    @Kathy: Gah, fuck that fascist piece of shit. Nobody voted for him, but he spent $250 million to get Trump elected and by God he’s going to get his fucking money’s worth.

    2
  39. Stormy Dragon says:

    Honestly, if the GOP forces a shutdown on Friday, Schumer should just adjourn the Senate until the next congress, and Biden and Harris resign and let President Mike Johnson deal with the mess until January 20th

    3
  40. Flat Earth Luddite says:

    @CSK:

    Tom Leher was wrong. Irony is NOT dead.

    1
  41. Kathy says:

    Hoe about that, it runs out hydroxychloroquine is not a treatment for COVID

    Sez who? Sez the journal that published the original study, and some of the researchers who conducted it.

    But paying heed to facts and methodology is elitist. So, you know.

    2
  42. Tony W says:

    @Stormy Dragon: but Biden and Harris need to resign in that order and a week apart so that Trumps merch business can’t keep up.

    1
  43. Flat Earth Luddite says:

    @de stijl:
    @de stijl:

    At one point in Luddite’s life, I was an organic chem major. Worked around the block from the Local biker clubhouse/amphetamine factory.

    The brutal joke was that the biggest mistake was making amphetamines illegal. Meth is the drug equivalent of mine tailings.

    During the Nixon administration, I argued that the legalization and taxation were an answer, but only if we used the funding to actually treat the condition, instead of funding random hobby horses the way we do. My first thesis was on the cost/benefit of same. My advisor was horrified that I would ignore the “morality” of drug use. My response was that society wasn’t in a position to care about the morality of addiction, but only about the possibility of treating the addiction horrified him even more.

    Our society would still rather criminalize behavior than treat issues. Especially when we’re discussing “others.”

    Your compassion and service to society just reinforces my belief that you’re a much better human than I.

    4
  44. Kathy says:

    Remember the Boeing Starliner astronauts who are not stranded in the ISS? Well, they’ll stay not stranded for an extra month.

    I hope they like it there.

    Yes, orbiting the Earth must be an awesome experience, but everything wears thin in time. Plus it’s a small space, you see the same people 24/7 with little change, and so on.

    And in Deep Blue Montana, a narrow 6-1 decision by the state supreme court upheld a landmark trial court decision last August in favor of 16 young people who said their health and futures were being jeopardized by climate change, which the state aggravates through its permitting of energy projects.

    IT sounds like a job for Crow & Leo! Tip the f**k out of those justices.

  45. MarkedMan says:

    No Thursday open forum?

    1
  46. Kathy says:

    @MarkedMan:

    I think Thursdays sometimes get lost in the Bearimy.

    Or was that Tuesdays?

    Sometimes it’s never.