Outside the Beltway

Gabby Giffords District Republicans Raffle a Glock!

Raw Story tweeted “Republicans in Rep. Giffords’ district plan to raffle off the same type of gun Jared Loughner used. ” This links to their own story demonstrating that they’re doing no such thing.

James Joyner
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Raw Story tweeted  ”Republicans in Rep. Giffords’ district plan to raffle off the same type of gun Jared Loughner used. ” This links to their own story demonstrating that they’re doing no such thing.

The Republican Party in Arizona’s Pima County, which is represented by Rep. Gabrielle Giffords (D-AZ), is in the midst of a fundraising raffle, $10 per entry.

The prize: the same model of gun that delivered a near-fatal blast to the Democratic lawmaker’s skull outside a Tucson grocery store in January.

Tucson is in Pima County.

The local party sent out its e-newsletter late last week advertising the raffle. On the third page of the seven-page document, a large illustration of the gun appears with the headline “Help Pima GOP get out the vote and maybe help yourself to a new Glock .40.“

But, as the story goes on to tell us, the Glock being raffled off is actually not the one Loughner used:

The gun is a Glock 23, an updated model of the Glock 19 Jared Loughner used during his January 8, 2011 shooting spree that killed six and injured 13 others, including Giffords.

If, by “updated model” they mean completely different weapon, they’re right. The Glock 19 is 9 mm (specifically, a 9x19mm Parabellum) whereas the Glock 23 is a .40 caliber (10×22 Smith & Wesson).

Now, given that six people died and nineteen people, among them Gabby Giffords, were seriously wounded in a mass shooting there a less than nine months ago, one can question the taste and judgment of the Pima County GOP. Although my strong guess is that they just thought a Glock would be a really great draw in a place where handguns are wildly popular.

There’s no mention of Giffords in the ad and, frankly, I can’t imagine that they have any interest in drawing yet more attention to the shooting that transformed her into a beloved national figure.

UPDATE: Diana Wueger reminds me of this handy dandy Journalist’s Guide to Firearms Identification:

 

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134 responses to “Gabby Giffords District Republicans Raffle a Glock!”

  1. michael reynolds Avatar
    michael reynolds

    Republicans have a sick relationship with guns. It is a mental disorder, and that’s not exaggeration. It’s one of the creepiest things about your increasingly creepy party and this is one of the sickest things I’ve seen in politics in a long time.

    The GOP/NRA has managed to pass this mental disorder off as acceptable, but that doesn’t change the fact that it is still sick.

    The rest of the world looks at us and thinks we are out of our f—ing minds, and they’re right.

  2. Jay Tea Avatar
    Jay Tea

    @michael reynolds: to quote a far better writer than you, michael, “an armed society is a polite society.”

    Every single time some jurisdiction talks about easing restrictions on gun ownership, there are all those hysterical predictions about how it’s gonna be Dodge City, carnage and bodies everywhere, mass slaughter, mayhem, dogs and cats living together…

    And then, when it happens, crime actually drops.

    Meanwhile, nearly every such massacre has occurred in a designated “gun-free zone.” How many mass shootings have taken place at a firing range or a gun show? Geez, with all those guns and gun nuts, you’d think it’d be inevitable. But for some reason, they tend to happen in places where guns are incredibly scarce — colleges, schools, malls.

    Why, it’s almost like the nutjobs are saying “I’m crazy, but I’m not that crazy. I’ll go shoot a bunch of people who can’t shoot back.”

    J.

  3. Steven Donegal Avatar
    Steven Donegal

    frankly, I can’t imagine that they have any interest in drawing yet more attention to the shooting that transformed her into a beloved national figure.

    Well then they are #^%$^ idiots. Because nothing is more low key than a political party raffling a gun in a district where the Congresswoman was shot.

  4. michael reynolds Avatar
    michael reynolds

    @Jay Tea:
    Heinlein was often an idiot.

    Somalia is an armed society. The Netherlands is not.

    Afghanistan is an armed society. Japan is not.

    Arizona is an armed society. Canada is not.

    I could go on all day.

  5. SKI Avatar
    SKI

    Really James?

    The notable thing about this story to you is that, in the headline, they used the word “type” instead of the accurate “brand” and the writer doesn’t know handguns all that well? Really?

  6. Doug Mataconis Avatar
    Doug Mataconis

    Seriously, how stupid do people have to be to do something like this?

    And I say that as a firm supporter of the Second Amendment’s individual right to keep and bear arms.

  7. SKI Avatar
    SKI

    @michael reynolds:
    There you go confusing Jay with actual facts and reality again…

  8. doubter4444 Avatar
    doubter4444

    @Doug Mataconis:
    That’s the point, it’s not what type of gun, it’s the fact that they are doing it at all, in this district.
    It’s arrogance, and to cry that it’s “technically” not the same gun so that makes it ok, is pretty stupid as well.

  9. john personna Avatar
    john personna

    Wait a sec., they said “same type of gun” and you are hanging your whole objection on caliber?

    Gun guys know that you can choose a gun, and then choose a caliber. And they know how to convert caliber to mm. What is a 40cal in mm? 10.16 mm?

    Oh yeah James, a 10.16mm semi-automatic pistol iis totally different than a 9mm semi-automatic pistol.

  10. Jay Tea Avatar
    Jay Tea

    @michael reynolds:

    Somalia is not America.

    The Netherlands is not America.

    Afghanistan is not America.

    Japan is not America.

    Canada is not America.

    And I’m still waiting to hear about all those massacres in places with tons o’ guns…

    J.

  11. mantis Avatar
    mantis

    Handguns have one use: killing people. Interesting that the Pima Republican Party actively supports and even provides the tools for killing people. They call themselves the “pro-life” party?

  12. Jay Tea Avatar
    Jay Tea

    All being said and done, though, it was a rather poor PR move. Someone needs a dope-slap.

    J.

  13. mantis Avatar
    mantis

    @Jay Tea:

    Somalia is not America…..

    Jay Tea has a lot of trouble with logic and reason. He doesn’t quite understand that you can’t cite America as a counterpoint to America.

    And I’m still waiting to hear about all those massacres in places with tons o’ guns…

    The fact that your gun-loving buddies only go on massacres against people who can’t defend themselves isn’t an argument for more guns, but less guns for you lunatics. But I guess your position is a massacre that ends with someone killing the assailant is better than no massacre at all.

  14. john personna Avatar
    john personna

    According to Wikipedia,

    The Glock 23 is a .40 S&W version of the compact Glock 19. It is dimensionally identical to the Glock 19 but is slightly heavier and uses a modified slide, frame, .40 S&W barrel and a standard magazine capacity of 13 rounds. The factory 15-round magazine from the larger Glock 22 will function in the Glock 23.

  15. mantis Avatar
    mantis

    @Jay Tea:

    Someone needs a dope-slap.

    Yeah. You.

  16. john personna Avatar
    john personna

    @mantis:

    Huh, I have used handguns, and I have never killed a person.

  17. Maxwell James Avatar
    Maxwell James

    As a former Pima County resident, I’ll just say this doesn’t surprise me at all.

  18. Lit3Bolt Avatar
    Lit3Bolt

    Shorter James Joyner: The GOP can do no wrong regarding guns, especially tasteless vote-buying with guns in a district where the Rep. narrowly escaped being assassinated by a gun. YEE HAW!!!

  19. mantis Avatar
    mantis

    Huh, I have used handguns, and I have never killed a person.

    And I can beat a tire iron against the ground, but that’s not its intended purpose.

  20. mantis Avatar
    mantis

    Lowest rate of gun ownership in the United States: Hawaii.
    Lowest rate of gun deaths in the United States: Hawaii.

    Coincidence?

  21. OzarkHillbilly Avatar
    OzarkHillbilly

    And I’m still waiting to hear about all those massacres in places with tons o’ guns…

    Oklahoma City.

  22. OzarkHillbilly Avatar
    OzarkHillbilly

    And I’m still waiting to hear about all those massacres in places with tons o’ guns…

    Fort Hood, TX.

  23. OzarkHillbilly Avatar
    OzarkHillbilly

    And I’m still waiting to hear about all those massacres in places with tons o’ guns…

    DUH!!! Tuscon, AZ.

  24. michael reynolds Avatar
    michael reynolds

    @Jay Tea:

    I don’t know: is it worth it to keep pointing out that you’re, um, not very deep in the old intellect department?

    Somalia is not America. Uh huh . . . And Heinlein wrote science fiction. So . . .?

    You quoted Heinlein as asserting a universal truth. Does his quote single out the US and exclude other societies? Did he say, “This only applies to Americans?” Did he say, “Of course this wouldn’t be true of Somalia?”

    No.

    So, again: Jay trying to think. Painful to watch.

  25. jan Avatar
    jan

    There’s no mention of Giffords in the ad…..

    So, I’m wondering why this ‘gun raffle’ was even brought up for discussion. If it had been any other group sponsoring such an event, other than a Republican one, would this have been such a sensational story, at least on this site?

  26. mantis Avatar
    mantis

    @jan:

    So, I’m wondering why this ‘gun raffle’ was even brought up for discussion. If it had been any other group sponsoring such an event, other than a Republican one, would this have been such a sensational story, at least on this site?

    This is a political blog. The sponsor of the raffle is the Pima County Republican Party. What part of that don’t you understand?

  27. jan Avatar
    jan

    …and, yes Jay does make some legitimate points in that states permitting the carrying of concealed weapons do tend to have lower crime rates. It translates into having more arms in the hands of responsible people than in the hands of criminals.

  28. jan Avatar
    jan

    @mantis:

    It’s a red herring point to discuss. It has no relevance to policy-making, and makes no association with what happened earlier in the year. At best it was a poor judgment call by the R party, in lieu of the Giffords tragedy. However, guns are a hobby for some, and not associated with mass murder like it is with others. If the Congresswoman’s name had been brought up in the ad then it would have been totally inappropriate and worthy of denouncement.

  29. mantis Avatar
    mantis

    @jan:

    …and, yes Jay does make some legitimate points in that states permitting the carrying of concealed weapons do tend to have lower crime rates. It translates into having more arms in the hands of responsible people than in the hands of criminals.

    No, he does not. Only two states, Illinois and Wisconsin, plus D.C., don’t issue concealed carry permits. D.C. is a bit of a special case, but IL and WI are both in the bottom 15 states for gun deaths.

    Hawaii, which I mention above, has the lowest rates of gun ownership and the lowest rates of gun deaths. While Hawaii does have concealed carry permits, they are rarely issued, because they are only allowed for “On Duty, In Uniform,” purposes, requiring employers to register with law enforcement.

    So the state with the lowest gun deaths also has the least number of guns per capita, and very restrictive concealed carry laws.

    States with the highest levels of gun deaths, like Alabama, Alaska, and Louisiana, have very permissive gun laws.

    Your argument is completely backwards. FAIL.

  30. mantis Avatar
    mantis

    @jan:

    It’s a red herring point to discuss.

    Get your own blog if you don’t like the topics discussed here. No one is forcing you to come to this site.

    If the Congresswoman’s name had been brought up in the ad then it would have been totally inappropriate and worthy of denouncement.

    To decent people, it’s inappropriate without mentioning Giffords name. Everyone in Pima knows what happened to her. It’s no mystery what they are doing here: capitalizing on the fact that many Republicans in Arizona are big supporters of political assassinations….of Democrats. That is their audience for this disgusting “raffle.”

  31. Steve Verdon Avatar
    Steve Verdon

    @john personna:

    Actually…well I’ll leave it to the gun guys to discuss the differences between a 9mm and 10mm.

    Somalia is an armed society. The Netherlands is not.

    I think part of the problem here is that he comparison is dubious. If the Netherlands suddenly introduced firearms to its population would it become Somalia? I think that outcome is doubtful. By the same token if firearms were removed from Somalia would it become like the Netherlands? Again, doubtful. The problems is not simply the availability of firearms. Although the ubiquity of firearms in Somalia probably make an already unstable situation highly dangerous. As a counter example, there is Switzerland where militia members keep a military style weapon in their home. Yet the country is not torn apart by violence like Somalia.

  32. EddieInCA Avatar
    EddieInCA

    @Steve Verdon:

    Steve, you wrote these two sentences in the same paragraph.

    I think part of the problem here is that he comparison is dubious.

    As a counter example, there is Switzerland where militia members keep a military style weapon in their home. Yet the country is not torn apart by violence like Somalia.

    So you want to compare a country like Switzerland, where military training and service is MANDATORY, and gun ownership is mandatory for much of it’s citizenry, to Somalia.

    Here’s wikipedia:

    The Swiss Armed Forces perform the roles of Switzerland’s militia and regular army. Under the country’s militia system, professional soldiers constitute about 5 percent of military personnel; the rest are conscript citizens 18 to 34 (in some cases up to 50) years old. Because of a long history of neutrality, the army does not take part in armed conflicts in other countries, but is part of several peacekeeping missions around the world.

    The structure of the Swiss militia system stipulates that the soldiers keep their own personal equipment, including all personal weapons, at home. Compulsory military service concerns all male Swiss citizens, with women serving voluntarily. They usually receive initial training orders at the age of 18 for military conscription.

    And you want to make an issue of someone else’s comparision…

    Wow.

    Irony, thy name is Steve Verdon.

  33. john personna Avatar
    john personna

    @mantis:

    And I can beat a tire iron against the ground, but that’s not its intended purpose.

    There are plenty of guns designed for other purposes, sheesh. Example:

    The finest, most highly evolved and developed single shot match target pistol produced in the U.S. from 1880 to 1940 was the H and R “U.S.R.A.”

    Commonly called “U.S.R.A. Single Shot Pistols”, the U.S.R.A. marking did not appear on the early models. Production began in 1928 or perhaps 1929 and ended in 1941 with about 3300 of the pistols produced. The factory records were destroyed in a fire and this pistol of constant evolution and change makes an interesting study. Officially it was the Harrington and Richardson Model 195 although it appears that the model number was never put on a pistol.

    Rather than take indefensible and historically inaccurate positions, you’d be better off asking why there are so _few_ single shot target pistols sold. Or why a civilian needs more than a 5 round magazine.

  34. Steve Verdon Avatar
    Steve Verdon

    So you want to compare a country like Switzerland, where military training and service is MANDATORY, and gun ownership is mandatory for much of it’s citizenry, to Somalia.

    No. Where did I write that? Let me look again? Hmmm, nowhere. Do you see where I have written that?

    My point is that mere proliferation is probably not sufficient to cause the problems we see in Somalia or even Afghanistan. I think suggesting that it is, as Michael indicates, is problematic. Canada actually has lots of guns. A 1996 study indicated around 22% had some sort of firearm.

    My point is that the dynamic is not as simplistic as people on either side like to make out.

    Oh, and Eddie, it is usually not a good idea to go full retard.

  35. john personna Avatar
    john personna

    (Oh, and don’t forget the 44 Mag, or similar, you better carry if you go fly-fishing on the Kenai Peninsula.)

  36. WR Avatar
    WR

    @Steve Verdon: The Somalia/Netherlands comparison was specifically in response to JT’s idiot quote of one of Heinlein’s dumber bon mots: “An armed society is a polite society.”

    I don’t believe MR was saying if the Dutch had as many guns as they do bicycles they’d turn into Somalia. He was pointing out that quoting a science fiction writer in the grips of senility doesn’t actually prove a point about gun control.

  37. john personna Avatar
    john personna

    @Steve Verdon:

    Actually…well I’ll leave it to the gun guys to discuss the differences between a 9mm and 10mm.

    I’m sure they can argue for three days about which is “better,” but given that the Model 23 is apparently the 40 cal version of the Model 19, James argument that these are different “types” of guns is right out the window.

  38. john personna Avatar
    john personna

    (Note that Raw Story didn’t get it right either, the Model 23 is a caliber option, not a newer generation.)

  39. Justin Avatar
    Justin

    Well when some mently ill preson cames after you ill make sure to leve my glock at home

  40. mantis Avatar
    mantis

    @john personna:

    Production began in 1928 or perhaps 1929 and ended in 1941

    Well, I was talking about what handguns are produced and sold now, not 70+ years ago.

  41. EddieInCA Avatar
    EddieInCA

    @Steve Verdon:

    So you want to compare a country like Switzerland, where military training and service is MANDATORY, and gun ownership is mandatory for much of it’s citizenry, to Somalia.

    No. Where did I write that? Let me look again? Hmmm, nowhere. Do you see where I have written that?

    So this statement, by you, isn’t a comparison?

    “As a counter example, there is Switzerland where militia members keep a military style weapon in their home. Yet the country is not torn apart by violence like Somalia.”

    If not, I don’t think you know what the word “comparison” means.

  42. john personna Avatar
    john personna

    @mantis:

    Actually, no, you just invented the “in production” dodge. Which is sad, do I need to google it for you?

    The Thompson Contender is probably the most famous in this category. They are probably most often used at ranges, but some people manage to bag a hog etc. with them.

  43. Steve Verdon Avatar
    Steve Verdon

    @WR:

    Yes, I know, and he also likened gun ownership to a mental disorder as well. Those two posts together suggest that mere gun ownership or the desire for gun ownership is something bad for society, but I think that is simplistic especially given comparisons of the U.S., Canada, and the Netherlands to Somalia and Afghanistan. I think the issue is a bit more complex than either side is willing to admit.

    I’m sure they can argue for three days about which is “better,” but given that the Model 23 is apparently the 40 cal version of the Model 19, James argument that these are different “types” of guns is right out the window.

    JP,

    I’m not a gun guy (have never owned a firearm, haven’t shot one in well over 2 decades) but I have known people who were (and contrary to Michael Reynolds they were not insane clinically or otherwise) and according to different people they each preferred different calibers. Some liked the 9mm, some the .40 S&W, others the 10mm, some the 0.45 ACP. You are right that they could argue endlessly about them, so I think it is reasonable to conclude that the difference in caliber, to people interested in guns, is significant. Heck, even the FBI would take issue since they were part of the reason for the rise of the 0.40S&W.

  44. Steve Verdon Avatar
    Steve Verdon

    @EddieInCA:

    I see you are still stuck in full retard mode. I was offering that in addition to Michael’s list and prior to that noted that mere proliferation is likely not sufficient to be a problem, although if there are problems proliferation would likely make a bad situation worse.

    In short RFFC.

  45. mantis Avatar
    mantis

    @john personna:

    Actually, no, you just invented the “in production” dodge.

    No, I didn’t. When I talk about what handguns are used for, I’m talking about handguns that are sold and used today, not 70+ years ago. If I was talking about 70+ years ago, I would have said so.

    Which is sad, do I need to google it for you?

    Google what for me? My own thoughts?

    The Thompson Contender is probably the most famous in this category. They are probably most often used at ranges, but some people manage to bag a hog etc. with them.

    Ok, fine. I’m not an expert on all the different types of specialty handguns out there. How many single-shot break open pistols are sold each year in the United States? What percentage of all handgun sales do they comprise? My guess is it is near infinitesimal (I briefly looked, but could not find sales figures).

    Have fun splitting hairs on this; your argument is pointless.

  46. Steve Verdon Avatar
    Steve Verdon

    @john personna:

    And lets not get into differences in manufacturer too…Sig vs. Glock vs. H&K…Katie bar the door.

    Of course these conversations were always polite (Jay Tea), but most likely not just because they were armed, but also because the were friends (Michael Reynolds). like I said, I think the issue is a tiny bit more complicated than either side likes to make out.

  47. john personna Avatar
    john personna

    @Steve Verdon:

    You are right that they could argue endlessly about them, so I think it is reasonable to conclude that the difference in caliber, to people interested in guns, is significant.

    As it was described to me, it was trends. Bell bottoms are in, bell bottoms are out. Varmint guns are in, then .50 cals are cool.

    Of course you can see the marketing advantage in trends, and gun magazine cycling of trends.

    It’s nice to sell a .40 cal to a guy who already owns a 9mm.

    (Technically I should have always put the dot before .40 caliber, for reasons explained here.)

  48. john personna Avatar
    john personna

    @mantis:

    I consider you sensible on a lot of things, but the claim I objected to up top, that:

    Handguns have one use: killing people. I

    that was just nuts. Now you say:

    Ok, fine. I’m not an expert on all the different types of specialty handguns out there. How many single-shot break open pistols are sold each year in the United States?

    Way to move the f’ing goal posts, eh?

  49. Jay Tea Avatar
    Jay Tea

    @michael reynolds: Fine. How about this?

    Somalis is not a society.

    J.

  50. john personna Avatar
    john personna

    [Apparently the moderation filter doesn’t like bad words!]

    @mantis:

    I consider you sensible on a lot of things, but the claim I objected to up top, that:

    Handguns have one use: killing people.

    that was just nuts. Now you say:

    Ok, fine. I’m not an expert on all the different types of specialty handguns out there. How many single-shot break open pistols are sold each year in the United States?

    Way to move the F’ing goal posts, eh?

  51. Steve Verdon Avatar
    Steve Verdon

    @john personna:

    Well there is that. Most of these guys did own different calibers, but each had their preferred caliber as well, and I’m not convinced it is like fashion trends. Several of these guys worked in some form of law enforcement and there were issues with things like stopping power, reloading, etc.

    Ironically, when I’d be in the changing room with them and they’d be removing various firearms and storing them, I never worried about my safety. In fact, given the rough nature of the neighborhood I actually felt a bit safer whenever I got close to the building and new these guys were around. Granted anecdotal and just my own personal experience, and these guys took firearm ownership very seriously (i.e. practiced good safety, etc.). So a different situation would have undoubtedly left a different impression.

  52. Jay Tea Avatar
    Jay Tea

    @mantis: Handguns have one use: killing people.

    Handguns have plenty of other functions — albeit secondary ones. For example, they are sporting goods — target shooting is a sport.

    Plus, a handgun need not kill someone to serve their self-defense function. Simply displaying one sometimes can deter an aggressor. Sometimes a warning shot or wounding can suffice.

    And this might give you the vapors, but some people just need killing, People like very aggressive assailants intent on killing or seriously injuring someone has, as far as I’m concerned, declared their life worth less than their victim’s. I’d rather have a dead attacker than a dead victim.

    J.

  53. Rick Almeida Avatar
    Rick Almeida

    The fact that every comment in this thread is not something like, “Wow, that’s a dumb move” is telling.

  54. Jay Tea Avatar
    Jay Tea

    @OzarkHillbilly: Man, what crappy examples.

    Oklahoma City: Bomb, not guns.

    Fort Hood: Soldiers were unarmed, as per policy. Gunman was the only one armed — and knew that. In the middle of a huge army base, the first armed personnel to respond and stop the gunman were civilian police officers.

    Tuscon: At least one and possibly two bystanders were armed, and exercised their good judgment in not drawing their weapons. Instead, the gunman was swarmed into submission.

    Got any more, chum?

    J.

  55. john personna Avatar
    john personna

    @Steve Verdon:

    Interesting history of the 10mm, ah I mean .40 cal, here. It is really a tweak of the 9mm which the FBI found appropriate. I can see why an officer would tilt that way.

  56. michael reynolds Avatar
    michael reynolds

    @Steve Verdon:

    I think part of the problem here is that he comparison is dubious.

    Yes, it is. But it was implied in the Heinlein quote we were provided as the rationale for Jay’s statement.

    Incidentally, on the subject of Heinlein and his being in Jay’s words, “A far better writer,” than me.

    Actually, no. There are a lot of sci fi writers who are more imaginative than I am, and know a great deal more about actual science. But that was never Heinlein, he’s a soft sci fi writer, and more to the point, an author of political polemic and lurid old-man sexual fantasies disguised as novels. He’s a respected writer — by me too — because he’s a Founder of 50’s/60’s sci fi along with Clarke and Asimov and Dick and some other guys.

    But as for actual skill as a writer good lord, no one who knows anything about writing thinks Heinlein was a prose stylist or a great writer of character. Most sci fi writers can’t write character or even plot worth a damn. (What’s the plot of Starship Troopers? Um. . . Fascism is good?) A guy like Vernor Vinge or Iain Banks, these are absolutely brilliant world-builders, better than me. But Vinge’s dialog and character are pitiful, and Banks’ aren’t much better.

    There are a bunch (thousands) of writers who are better than I am. Like the above, I’m no prose stylist, God knows, but Heinlein would be a bad example because at my worst I write better dialog and handle character better. Unlike most sci fi writers I can even write female characters. (!) But to step out of the sci fi genre for a moment, Raymond Chandler did more for writing as writing in the first paragraph of The Big Sleep than I’ve done in my entire career. And he’s not alone in that.

  57. mantis Avatar
    mantis

    @john personna:

    Way to move the F’ing goal posts, eh?

    No, okay, you are right. I should not have been so absolute earlier. I would like to amend my statement to “The vast majority of handguns sold have one primary purpose: shooting people.”

    I even amended one part to which you expressed no objection. Handguns can be used to wound people as well as kill them.

    And FWIW, I’m not really a gun control guy. I am, in fact, a gun owner. I have a rifle that I inherited from my grandfather, who taught me to hunt when I was young, and I have a shotgun I purchased for home defense. I don’t hunt now, and I have no desire to ever use the guns I own, even if I am prepared to do so if needed. What I dislike is the glorification of violence against my fellow citizens so common among gun owners, and the common, gleeful wingnut refrain that all the gun owners will revolt and kill all us liberals if they don’t like what happens in this country politically (Jay Tea has expressed this repeatedly before). I also think the idea that we would all be safer if everyone carried guns on them is completely absurd, and not at all supported by the facts.

    In short, I don’t think we should take guns from people or outlaw the sale of guns. I think we should evolve toward a society that prefers, through the will of the people, not to have so many gun deaths. Republican Party gun raffle fundraisers that implicitly celebrate the assassination and attempted assassination of several local Democrats are a big step in the wrong direction, IMO.

  58. mantis Avatar
    mantis

    I’d rather have a dead attacker than a dead victim.

    No, you’ve made quite clear you would rather have both.

  59. Steve Verdon Avatar
    Steve Verdon

    @Rick Almeida:

    I didn’t feel it necessary to state the obvious.

  60. jan Avatar
    jan

    @mantis:

    You’re using the small state of HI as an example?

    Here’s another site with stats that contradict your’s.

    Get your own blog if you don’t like the topics discussed here. No one is forcing you to come to this site.

    So, when is disagreement taboo? Or, is this site the land of lock-step?

    It’s no mystery what they are doing here: capitalizing on the fact that many Republicans in Arizona are big supporters of political assassinations….of Democrats.

    That comment speaks volumes for the kind of hyperbole and mischaracterization of an opposing party you support, in order to make that kind of ‘crazy,’ incendiary comment. Gifford’s gunman was a crazy, just like your above statement. His horrendous act had nothing to do with partisan motivation or a partisan assassination predisposition. Shame on you. Or, maybe you just need to practice some yoga or get some calming meds…..

  61. michael reynolds Avatar
    michael reynolds

    Handguns have plenty of other functions — albeit secondary ones. For example, they are sporting goods — target shooting is a sport.

    Riiiiight. Target shooting with, say, a .45.

    I’ve fired a .45. I’ve owned a .45. Unless your target is a barn it’s not for target shooting. It’s for killing human beings. Period.

  62. john personna Avatar
    john personna

    @mantis:

    It was very gracious of you to back up. That’s not something you see every day on the Internets. It is a model for us all.

    But I think most guns are actually purchased for another reason. They are masculinity tokens. And they sit in closets (or better, gun safes) for that purpose.

    I betcha the high capacity magazine and Viagra demographics overlap 😉

  63. john personna Avatar
    john personna

    Heh, I used the “v word” please unmoderate 😉

  64. john personna Avatar
    john personna

    @michael reynolds:

    I’ve fired a .45. I’ve owned a .45. Unless your target is a barn it’s not for target shooting. It’s for killing human beings. Period.

    I note that you managed to shoot, and own(!) a .45 without going people-hunting.

    Or do you have a dark past we should know about?

  65. michael reynolds Avatar
    michael reynolds

    @john personna:
    I got it because I thought a guy might try to kill me.

    (I’ll wait patiently while each of you says, “No! Surely no one would ever want to kill you, Michael!”)

    I fired it by accident in a room containing my sister, my girlfriend and my best friend. No one was hit. I traded it to a guy for a camera. That would be about 35 years ago. Haven’t needed a gun since.

  66. DRE Avatar
    DRE

    @SKI:

    http://www.gundirectory.com/more.asp?gid=20206&gun=pistol

    http://www.gundirectory.com/more.asp?gid=20086&gun=Pistol

    And of course calling these 2 the same type is just like all the “glock” images on the journalist guide.

  67. john personna Avatar
    john personna

    @michael reynolds:

    Well I’m glad you learned without a harder lesson. FWIW, I don’t own any guns either. I just have a higher comfort level about people who do. As I say in my (hidden) comment, I think most people buy them as tokens (or totems) of masculinity, shoot them a couple times, and keep them in a closet.

    We can either focus on how necessary that is, or on how harmless it most often is.

    My call is that prudent restrictions would allow reasonable use, including “manliness,” while disadvantaging the crazed mall or school shooters.

  68. john personna Avatar
    john personna

    @DRE:

    Read the bit above, about the Model 23 being a .40 cal version of the Model 19.

    Sometimes a Glock really is just a Glock 😉

  69. PD Shaw Avatar
    PD Shaw

    @michael reynolds: Haven’t read any of your books, but Heinlein’s Stranger in a Strange Land, the original uncut edition, was one of the flabbiest reads I can recall. Very Self-indulgent and need of editing.

    What’s the topic again?

  70. john personna Avatar
    john personna

    @PD Shaw:

    What’s a little thread drift among friends 😉

  71. DRE Avatar
    DRE

    @john personna:

    Yep. I just wanted to add a visual aid.

  72. mantis Avatar
    mantis

    You’re using the small state of HI as an example?

    Yes, using per capita statistics. Do you have a problem with that?

    So, when is disagreement taboo? Or, is this site the land of lock-step?

    You’re not disagreeing with arguments, but rather with the fact that the author decided to address a particular topic. If you don’t like the topics discussed here, there are plenty of other blogs out there, and you could start your own. I never said anything about disagreement being taboo, I’m just pointing out the stupidity of bothering to leave a comment which merely gripes about the topic of discussion, instead of the discussion itself.

    His horrendous act had nothing to do with partisan motivation or a partisan assassination predisposition.

    I’m not talking about his motivation, but rather the Pima Republicans implicitly celebrating his actions with this disgusting stunt. They know their audience.

  73. jan Avatar
    jan

    @john personna:

    My call is that prudent restrictions would allow reasonable use, including “manliness,” while disadvantaging the crazed mall or school shooters.

    I agree with personna on this one.

    I have never been a gun fancier, shooting a rifle once at the behest of a boyfriend’s brother who I had little regard for. But, I don’t begrudge those who want to own a gun, as long as they have training, a license and a background that checks out. Like some of John Lott’s studies have shown, guns in the right hands can be a deterrent.

  74. steve Avatar
    steve

    If you look at violent crime rates, they do tend to be higher in areas where you think of gun ownership as being more common. (Feel free to look at the full tables.)

    http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2009/offenses/standard_links/regional_estimates.html

    A gun is just a toll, like lots of other tools. Most are used for hunting or target shooting, which is what I do. Others are kept at home for potential self defense, like my .357. Those who buy guns legally, rarely use them to commit crimes.

    What I think should stop, is this weird need some people have to fetishize guns. The people who pose with their guns and seem to want to make them into some kind of symbol. I find that kind of creepy. I dont pose with my circular saw. I dont go posing with my guns either.

    Steve

  75. jan Avatar
    jan

    @mantis:

    blockquote> but rather the Pima Republicans implicitly celebrating his actions with this disgusting stunt.

    You’re reading into this ‘stunt’ your own interpretation. There was no reference to the tragedy, by either name or implication, just the type of gun used. You’re reaching, on this one, to make an ill-placed point and slam another party.

  76. mantis Avatar
    mantis

    @john personna:

    It was very gracious of you to back up. That’s not something you see every day on the Internets. It is a model for us all.

    I hope I’m not a model for behavior on the internet. If so, we’re in trouble!

    Anyway, it’s been a crappy week, and I’m a bit on edge and less…careful than I might otherwise be. Sometimes it’s good to get a slap on the head to realize you’re being unreasonable.

    But I think most guns are actually purchased for another reason. They are masculinity tokens. And they sit in closets (or better, gun safes) for that purpose.

    I think there is a lot of truth to this.

  77. jan Avatar
    jan

    @steve:

    Posing with guns is a completely different scenario than simply owning one. It’s like a surgeon having a bloodied scalpel in his hand, and smiling.

    It’s ghoulish.

  78. mantis Avatar
    mantis

    There was no reference to the tragedy, by either name or implication, just the type of gun used.

    That’s all that was needed. Like I said, they know their audience.

  79. john personna Avatar
    john personna

    @jan:

    I am very pleased that we reached agreement today, I should probably retire from the field …

    You’re reading into this ‘stunt’ your own interpretation. There was no reference to the tragedy, by either name or implication, just the type of gun used. You’re reaching, on this one, to make an ill-placed point and slam another party.

    There are a lot of non-Glocks they could have used though. You’d think they would have been that smart. Why not a Colt? I mean that is old time American, and of course old-time Arizonan.

    Or better, a lever-action Winchester. Not a handgun, and not a mall shooter’s choice.

  80. Ben Wolf Avatar
    Ben Wolf

    @michael reynolds: Almost every science fiction writer is a libertarian these days. Sometimes I wonder if that’s part of the genre’s problem: two dimensional characters, plots which kill the illusion and (as you said) unrealistic female characters. They also have an annoying tendency to lecture ad nauseam on their ideology, to the point the story itself is simply a vehicle for it.

  81. Stormy Dragon Avatar
    Stormy Dragon

    @michael reynolds:

    Republicans have a sick relationship with guns. It is a mental disorder, and that’s not exaggeration. It’s one of the creepiest things about your increasingly creepy party and this is one of the sickest things I’ve seen in politics in a long time.

    Look who’s talking, Mr. Drone-fetishist.

    You’re making the same argument that people who want to ban mosques in Manhattan are making: that it’s okay to take away someone’s rights if you can make some vague emotional analogy between them and some tragic event they were completely uninvolved in. A group of terrorists blew up the WTC, therefore no muslims may worship nearby. A nut shot a congressman, therefore no one can practice their right to self defense nearby.

    It’s a Bullshit argument when Pam Geller makes it and it’s a Bullshit argument when you makes it.

  82. Jay Tea Avatar
    Jay Tea

    mantis, this thread has been a remarkable education for me. The things I’ve learned:

    1) I somehow get a thrill when an innocent person is murdered, as long as their murderer also dies. (Huh?)

    2) I’m a non-gun-owner who defends your right to own guns; you’re a gun owner who would deny others the right to own guns.

    3) Most gun owners are potential psychopathic serial killers just waiting for the right “trigger” to set them off (but not you, of course), but to point out that constantly poking at those kinds of people might not be a good idea is really, really, really dangerous.

    I’m also curious just what kinds of insecurity-compensatory phallic symbols guns you own.

    J.

  83. Christopher Bowen Avatar
    Christopher Bowen

    @michael reynolds: As a liberal (in the legitimate sense, not the “HAPPY MEALS ARE EVIL” sense), I join with the Republicans in this. It is not right to disenfranchise the rights of legitimate, law-abiding citizens to control the crazies.

  84. Feragola Avatar
    Feragola

    @mantis:
    Car’s kill far more people than handguns. In fact, Bathtubs kill far more people than handguns.
    The ignorance here is beyond reason.

  85. michael reynolds Avatar
    michael reynolds

    @Stormy Dragon:
    Could you point out to me where I said I wanted to restrict anyone’s rights to own guns?

  86. OzarkHillbilly Avatar
    OzarkHillbilly

    Man, what crappy examples.

    JAY, What stupidity!!!!!!!!!!

    You ask for something, I give it to you, now you pretend that I was wrong?

    Oklahoma City: Bomb, not guns.

    A distinction you never made Jay. All the guns in Okie City did not one whit of anything to stop that bomb from going off.

    Fort Hood: Soldiers were unarmed, as per policy. Gunman was the only one armed — and knew that. In the middle of a huge army base, the first armed personnel to respond and stop the gunman were civilian police officers.

    Been to TX lately Jay? Been on any military bases lately Jay? They are full of guns, and yes, restricted….. For a reason. Still when I am working at the Fort, I hear a constant chatter from the firing range. As to the civilian police officers, FLWood still uses MPs. Not sure why Fort Hood does not.

    Tuscon: At least one and possibly two bystanders were armed, and exercised their good judgment in not drawing their weapons. Instead, the gunman was swarmed into submission.

    So Jay, you admit that concealed carry had absolutely nothing to do with ending the rampage in Tucson? Thank you Jay for agreeing with me.

    PS: DON”T DO THIS:

    Plus, a handgun need not kill someone to serve their self-defense function. Simply displaying one sometimes can deter an aggressor. Sometimes a warning shot or wounding can suffice.

    I spent too many years in the hood, and that is not a game you play. You pull a gun on someone, you just shoot their ass. Cause sure as sh*t, they’re gonna shoot you. You don’t “display”. You just let them wonder, than they think, “Is it worth it?” If you show, they know, and you are a dead man. And shut the F up. They don’t know what it means. The mouthier they get, the more scared they are. Silence is scary as f*ck to the punks. And for the record, I have carried a gun from time to time. I hated it, and I refuse to get a CC permit.

    Trust me on this. Don’t get your *ss shot stupidly.

    Got any more, chum?

    Next time.

  87. Stormy Dragon Avatar
    Stormy Dragon

    @Jay Tea:

    Plus, a handgun need not kill someone to serve their self-defense function. Simply displaying one sometimes can deter an aggressor. Sometimes a warning shot or wounding can suffice.

    Intentionally shooting to wound is a felony. You’re only allowed to shoot someone to prevent imminent lethal force. If you can afford to waste time just injuring them, it’s not imminent yet.

  88. michael reynolds Avatar
    michael reynolds

    @Ben Wolf:

    Almost every science fiction writer is a libertarian these days. Sometimes I wonder if that’s part of the genre’s problem: two dimensional characters, plots which kill the illusion and (as you said) unrealistic female characters. They also have an annoying tendency to lecture ad nauseam on their ideology, to the point the story itself is simply a vehicle for it.

    I think there’s a strain of Asperger’s going through the sci fi community. A lot of times they just don’t quite get humans. Richard K. Morgan is good with character and plot (usually) and Dan Simmons is a god.

  89. Tsar Nicholas Avatar
    Tsar Nicholas

    That “Journalist’s Guide to Firearms” left me in stitches.

    In any event, one of the hallmark symptoms of the mental disease known as leftism is a visceral and reflexive opposition to anything that empowers the individual at the expense of the state. When a person is armed he has less of a need for mommy government to protect him. That drives leftists crazier than normal. Journalists by and large are more liberal even than most leftists. Hence the hysterical reaction to the Pima County GOP’s gun raffle.

    Lastly, regardling the larger and related issue of the left’s rabid opposition to gun rights for the general public (unless we’re talking about a wealthy liberal’s valet or their bodyguard, of course), a couple of points are worth mentioning: (1) the fact that guns are a manufactured product that directly and indirectly employs many people is lost on the left. (2) The fact the jurisdictions with the very highest rates of gun violence are those with the strictest “gun control” ordinances also is lost on the left. Neither of which is or should be surprising. Leftists have force fields surrounding them blocking out all traces of reality, all ability to engage in critical thinking and all notions of common sense and good judgment.

  90. OzarkHillbilly Avatar
    OzarkHillbilly

    Unless your target is a barn it’s not for target shooting. It’s for killing human beings. Period.

    Michael, a buddy of mine was the #1 shooter in the USAF for several years in the late ’70’s/early 80’s. He was deadly with a .45. (Won several competitions) Also, he is the only guy (enlisted man) I know who beat the F out of a Full Bird Colonel and got a commendation for it

  91. anjin-san Avatar
    anjin-san

    @jay

    Why don’t you and the five or six other people in the world who are over 25 yet have not outgrown Heinlien get together and compare notes?

  92. Jay Tea Avatar
    Jay Tea

    @OzarkHillbilly: The point you SEEMED to be making was that more guns equals more people being killed.

    Oklahoma City: since guns didn’t save anyone, that’s an argument for gun control?

    Fort Hood: The regulations said Major Hassan shouldn’t have had a gun on him. Did a lot of good, didn’t it?

    Tucson: in the middle of a very stressful situation, licensed, legal gun owners actually didn’t go berserk and start shooting, but exercised very good judgment and realized that drawing and using their guns would not help that particular situation.

    As for the other examples: I wasn’t advising any such thing. I know the rule for a gun is don’t draw unless you’re prepared to shoot, don’t shoot unless you’re prepared to kill. I was noting that sometimes the drawing of the gun makes the bad guys flee, and sometimes the first shot — even if it doesn’t kill or even wound — can have the same effect. Not every situation involving a gun necessarily has to end with dead people.

    I guess we should all be glad that the admitted gun owners here — mantis, michael — weren’t in Tuscon. The consensus seems to be that if they had, the body count would have been much, much higher.

    J.

  93. OzarkHillbilly Avatar
    OzarkHillbilly

    My last word here: The 2nd Amendment was written for an 18th century world. We live in the 21st century. Who here thinks their rules apply to our century? That they thought an AK-47 in every house was ideal? A Glock 23? A grenade launcher?

    Who here can not allow for a 48 hr wait for their gun (and all the other guns) knowing that it might, just might (will), save a life thru more thourough back ground checks? Yeah, I know, “I gots my rights!” Yeah, you have a right to vote to…. But you can’t vote any time you want to, can you? You have to wait.

    In other words, there is such a thing as reasonable regulation. And if those reasonable regulations keep a gun out of the hands of a Jared Loughner, who loses?

    And if they don’t? Well, you had to wait another 48 hrs to get your nuts off.

    Ps I own 6 guns. And I like them. And I am thinking of buying a .357. I can wait.

  94. WR Avatar
    WR

    @michael reynolds: But there’s always been a strain of humanistic science fiction (for lack of a better phrase): LeGuin, Delaney, Silvererg, Tiptree. (Gee, guess what decade I did most of my science fiction reading in…) Is that all gone now?

  95. WR Avatar
    WR

    @anjin-san:

    “Why don’t you and the five or six other people in the world who are over 25 yet have not outgrown Heinlien get together and compare notes?”

    Umm, isn’t that why the internet was invented?

  96. jan Avatar
    jan

    @john personna:

    I am very pleased that we reached agreement today, I should probably retire from the field …

    LOL I will duly mark my calendar, noting this day as special….

    Earlier I alluded to the opinion that this was not the swiftest move on the part of republicans to have a gun as a raffle prize — IMO, any gun, let alone one similar to the one used in the Gifford’s tragedy. However, where I part ways is to sensationalize an isolated incident of stupidity, making it into some kind of generalized political statement on behalf of the republican party.

  97. OzarkHillbilly Avatar
    OzarkHillbilly

    The point you SEEMED to be making was that more guns equals more people being killed.

    Jay, my point was that just because somebody has a gun, that does not make them (or those around them) safer. You SEEMED to be saying that more guns made everybody safer. I called “Bull.”

    Oklahoma City: since guns didn’t save anyone, that’s an argument for gun control?

    No, it is an argument that a lack of gun control had no effect.

    Fort Hood: The regulations said Major Hassan shouldn’t have had a gun on him. Did a lot of good, didn’t it?

    Absolutely, but according to you, more guns would have made it better.

    Tucson: in the middle of a very stressful situation, licensed, legal gun owners actually didn’t go berserk and start shooting, but exercised very good judgment and realized that drawing and using their guns would not help that particular situation.

    Absolutely, but according to you less guns made it better.

    Jay, do you get my point?

    As for the other examples: I wasn’t advising any such thing. I know the rule for a gun is don’t draw unless you’re prepared to shoot, don’t shoot unless you’re prepared to kill.

    Good, ya had me a little worried there (only because the papers are full of that clap trap)

    I was noting that sometimes the drawing of the gun makes the bad guys flee, and sometimes the first shot — even if it doesn’t kill or even wound — can have the same effect. Not every situation involving a gun necessarily has to end with dead people.

  98. OzarkHillbilly Avatar
    OzarkHillbilly

    I hate computers, no idea what happened there, if computers were deadly weapons I would (and should) be banned.

    AS I WAS saying….

    I was noting that sometimes the drawing of the gun makes the bad guys flee, and sometimes the first shot — even if it doesn’t kill or even wound — can have the same effect.

    No. It has the effect of making the bad guys shoot. And if you shoot and miss, you are either dead or lucky. I have never been lucky.

    Not every situation involving a gun necessarily has to end with dead people.

    No, just those with lousy shots (generally Cops). You want to bet on that? Not me, they don’t call me “Mr. Lucky” because I am.

    (And for the record, I have not yet been shot, but I have been beaten to a bloody pulp and stabbed (minorly) once)

  99. ponce Avatar
    ponce

    Geez, can we put James’ picture in Wikipedia entry for “pedant” now?

  100. mantis Avatar
    mantis

    mantis, this thread has been a remarkable education for me. The things I’ve learned:

    Oh good, it’s time for another round of count the Jay Tea strawmen!

    1) I somehow get a thrill when an innocent person is murdered, as long as their murderer also dies. (Huh?)

    I didn’t say you get a thrill from it (strawman #1), I pointed out that your position is one in which it is preferable for a massacre to happen where the assailant(s) is also killed than for no massacre to happen at all. If there are more guns around, a murderer may get shot after he kills some people. You’ve made clear this is preferable to the murderer not having a gun in the first place.

    2) I’m a non-gun-owner who defends your right to own guns; you’re a gun owner who would deny others the right to own guns.

    Did I say I would deny others the right to own guns? Let’s review the thread, shall we?

    I don’t think we should take guns from people or outlaw the sale of guns.

    Well look there. The opposite of the position you’ve ascribed to me (strawman #2).

    3) Most gun owners are potential psychopathic serial killers just waiting for the right “trigger” to set them off

    Where did I say “most gun owners”? Oh, i didn’t? Strawman #3!

    (but not you, of course), but to point out that constantly poking at those kinds of people might not be a good idea is really, really, really dangerous.

    By “poking,” of course you are referring to people expressing their opinions and voting in elections. That’s what the gun-nut lunatics keep threatening to retaliate against, with you encouraging them. You love warning people like me that one day the gun owners will rise up against us for having the gall to participate in politics in this country, tacitly endorsing such an action.

    I’m also curious just what kinds of insecurity-compensatory phallic symbols guns you own.

    Ugh, fine. I have a Browning 7mm that is probably from the late 1960s or early 70s, and a Mossberg 12 gauge shotgun. Almost no one I know even knows I own them. They aren’t really a significant part of my life. One is sentimental, and the other I bought when I lived in a rough neighborhood and just never got rid of it. They are both locked up nice and secure.

    But please, Jay, when you are done working with straw, explain how the state of Hawaii, which has the lowest gun ownership rates among all the states and also has the lowest rate of gun deaths, squares with your argument that having more armed people around is safer.

  101. Jay Tea Avatar
    Jay Tea

    @OzarkHillbilly: No. It has the effect of making the bad guys shoot. And if you shoot and miss, you are either dead or lucky.

    No, it doesn’t. Not always. Check out the NRA’s “The Armed Citizen.” Lots of true stories of guns saving lives and preventing crimes, and not always with fatalities.

    I dunno if you’re failing to understand me or choosing to not understand me, but I agree with what you’re saying as a philosophy. What I am saying is that there are multiple potential outcomes — not always what is intended. Notice I said “sometimes.”

    Sometimes the would-be victim draws the gun, with the full resolve to shoot to kill to save themselves. But the attacker instead flees or surrenders. Sometimes the first shot misses, and the attacker flees or surrenders. Sometimes the first shot only wounds, and the attacker flees or surrenders.

    But the would-be victim has to be ready for the worst, as you say.

    J.

  102. ponce Avatar
    ponce

    No, it doesn’t. Not always. Check out the NRA’s “The Armed Citizen.” Lots of true stories of guns saving lives and preventing crimes, and not always with fatalities.

    Check out the nightly news in any town in America to see stories of citizens expressing their 2nd Amendments rights by using handguns to rob and murder their fellow citizens…

  103. jan Avatar
    jan

    @mantis:

    when you are working with straw, explain how the state of Hawaii, which has the lowest gun ownership rates among all the states and also has the lowest rate of gun deaths, squares with your argument that having more armed people around is safer.

    As of 2005, HI had a population of a little over 1,275,000 people. I want you to keep this stat in mind.

    According to this recent publication (4/5/2011), firearm permit registration is on the rise in HI.

    Hawaii residents applied for a record number of permits to buy guns last year and registered a near-record number of firearms, while the islands continued to enjoy the lowest rate of gun-related deaths in the country.

    Bill Richter, secretary and director of the Hawaii Rifle Association and the president of Lessons In Firearms Education, said there was a national surge in gun sales following President Barack Obama’s election in 2008 amid fears that Obama would impose further firearms restrictions.

    “Fortunately, President Obama has not seemed interested in pursuing further gun control,” Richter said.

    But more island residents are buying guns for personal protection, especially following natural disasters such as last month’s tsunami, Richter said.

    Because government does not track the number of firearms that leave the state, there is no firm number on how many privately owned guns are in Hawaii. An estimate made in the late 1990s placed the total number of privately owned firearms in Hawaii at roughly 1 million, the attorney general’s office said.

    Now, do the math, comparing the population size with the number of firearms owned.

    Crickets……?

  104. jan Avatar
    jan

    @ponce:

    Check out the nightly news in any town in America to see stories of citizens expressing their 2nd Amendments rights by using handguns to rob and murder their fellow citizens…

    That’s because the MSM only reports the bad guys killing people, and the lives lost via their actions. Rarely are there reports, from this same biased media, dealing with the lives saved by those defending themselves and others by having a gun.

  105. ponce Avatar
    ponce

    That’s because the MSM only reports the bad guys killing people, and the lives lost via their actions.

    This is utter fringe right nonsense.

    The press trumpets those rare occasions when somebody actually uses a handgun for good.

  106. Jay Tea Avatar
    Jay Tea

    @mantis: Yup, it’s SO much safer for all concerned when only the bad guys are armed.

    As I noted before, the mass killers tend to gravitate towards places where they know that they will be the only one armed. To them, “gun free zones” are hunting grounds. They don’t go for places where they have a good chance of encountering armed would-be victims. Virginia Tech was a gun-free zone. The portion of Fort Hood where Major Hassan had his attack of Sudden Jihad Syndrome was a gun-free zone.

    If ready access to guns was enough to cause a massacre, then why haven’t there been any in gun stores? At gun shows? At shooting ranges?

    The crazies are sane enough to figure out where they can encounted the most helpless victims (both as in “most helpless” and “most victims.”) They are sane enough to choose their scenes carefully. The Tuscon case was an abnormality, but the shooter wasn’t looking to commit a general massacre, but a specific assassination. He took the opportunity when he could get to his target.

    As it seems most common, it boils down to a simple question: do you trust your fellow law-abiding citizens to exercise their right to choose how to defend themselves? I do trust my fellow citizens. In Tuscon, there were three armed people at the scene of the shooting. One was the crazed would-be assassin. The other two quickly assessed the situation and decided — correctly — that drawing their guns would NOT help the situation. They exercised proper judgment in a very stressful situation and acted responsibly with their guns.

    But let’s take away their guns, because they might have made a wrong choice? I don’t think so.

    J.

  107. mantis Avatar
    mantis

    As I noted before, the mass killers tend to gravitate towards places where they know that they will be the only one armed.

    You’ve said that, but there is no indication it is actually true. One of your earlier examples is a military base, another was Tucson, where you note there were other armed individuals in attendance. Virginia Tech, like pretty much every other school shooting, involved a student at that school. They are not strangers picking schools because they are gun-free zones, they are trying to kill the people they see everyday, for whatever psychotic reason.

    If ready access to guns was enough to cause a massacre

    Strawman #4

    But let’s take away their guns, because they might have made a wrong choice?

    Strawman #5 (which is really a repeat of strawman #2.

    Let us know when you’re done playing with straw.

  108. Jay Tea Avatar
    Jay Tea

    @jan: jan, I’m liking what you’re saying, but one thing just doesn’t ring right. That population of Hawaii you cite is right around the population of my own New Hampshire, so mind if I double-check that figure?

    DAMN… I had no idea! I figured Hawaii had a lot more people than we did. Actually, we’re fairly comparable — we got a few more people, they got a bit more land.

    Of course, we have the smallest seacoast of all the states that have a seacoast, while their border is 100% seacoast…

    Thanks, jan. You taught me something I did not know.

    J.

  109. OzarkHillbilly Avatar
    OzarkHillbilly

    Check out the NRA’s “The Armed Citizen.”

    I am sorry Jay, I do not have to go anywhere near the NRA’s fantasy posts. Take note, they hava an agenda.

    In the real world, guns are fired, and people die. Take note, Jim is my B rep

  110. mantis Avatar
    mantis

    As of 2005, HI had a population of a little over 1,275,000 people. I want you to keep this stat in mind.

    Again, I was talking per capita gun ownership and gun deaths. Total population is irrelevant. Why do you keep going back to that?

    An estimate made in the late 1990s placed the total number of privately owned firearms in Hawaii at roughly 1 million, the attorney general’s office said.

    An estimate of unknown origin. How helpful. I’m using this.

    Now, do the math, comparing the population size with the number of firearms owned.

    Again, irrelevant. Most gun owners own multiple guns, so the total number of guns doesn’t really matter. What matters is gun ownership per capita. That’s what my link above is. Hawaii had the lowest as of 2001 according to the figures compiled by BRFSS.

    Anyway, do you actually have an argument? Could you let us know what it is?

    Crickets……?

    It’s best to actually post a comment before whining about the lack of responses to it, dumbass.

  111. OzarkHillbilly Avatar
    OzarkHillbilly

    Ok, i give up. the internet sucks.

  112. jan Avatar
    jan

    @mantis:

    Mantis

    You just don’t process arguments well, as your brain has too much cement lodged in it — no room for common sense.

  113. mantis Avatar
    mantis

    You just don’t process arguments well, as your brain has too much cement lodged in it — no room for common sense.

    Or you failed to actually offer an argument.

  114. anjin-san Avatar
    anjin-san

    @wr

    It’s interesting how much better Silverberg has aged than Heinlein. There is a creepy aspect to Heinlein, creating fantastic scenarios in which all the girls are forced to get undressed, and the very strange story line involving Lazarus Long traveling back in time & having sex with his mother. I also came to find a lot of his work to be over the top, and not in a good way.

    I have a bit of pleasant nostalgia going regarding reading him when I was 12, “Tunnel in the Sky” was my first experience with sci fi. By the time I was 15, I found Silverberg, Asimov, Niven and Anderson to be much more to my liking.

  115. anjin-san Avatar
    anjin-san

    no room for common sense.

    Jan’s common sense tells her that everything she reads on far right blogs is true and wonderful.

  116. jan Avatar
    jan

    @Jay Tea:

    Jay, I knew the population of HI was low, but not that low. This is why Mantis, using this state as an example of an unarmed state, in relationship to others, is ludicrous. And, now that it seems HI has a higher than normal number of requests for purchasing guns since the election of Obama, I am perplexed why he continues with his lame brain, stale mantra of holding HI as some kind of non-gun state. Also, using the assertion of gun owners probably having multiple guns, changing some kind of per capita stat he is throwing out, is absurd.

    It’s called being stuck on stupid.

    BTW, I like reading your posts, along with a hand-full of others, who seem to have a look at the state of this country through less partisan eyes.

  117. michael reynolds Avatar
    michael reynolds

    @anjin-san:

    There is a creepy aspect to Heinlein, creating fantastic scenarios in which all the girls are forced to get undressed,

    I remember noticing this even when I was a kid. There is a dirty old man thing going on with Heinlein. A piquant mix of fascism and sex with younger women.

  118. WR Avatar
    WR

    @michael reynolds: I loved a lot of Heinlein when I was a kid, but I must have read Stranger three times trying to figure out why anyone liked it. And the stuff that came after was simply atrocious. Time Enough For Love? I shudder even to think of it. And Farnham’s Freehold was among the most embarassing books ever written — if Ayn Rand wrote pulp badly, she would have come up with this.

    But some of that earlier stuff was wonderful. The libertarian crap didn’t kill The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, Hoag was terrific, those juveniles tremendously entertaining. (The creepy sexuality was always there — just think of The Door Into Summer…)

    Silverberg was in a completely different league. (And to be fair, a different generation, too.) I recently heard a lecture by the former book editor of the Los Angeles Times — and it was all about Dying Inside as a lasting work of literature. And there are scenes in that book I remember verbatim 35 years after I last read it.

    And then there’s Delaney. I haven’t read the Neveryon stuff. but it pleases me no end to see that Dahlgren now seems to be considered one of the major literary works of the 1970s. His prose is unbelievable. He’s difficult to be sure — but so is a lot of great art.

    Is there anyone in the field like these two? I like a lot of the Simmons I’ve read — although he is also capable of complete crap like Darwin’s Blade — and I’m a fiend for China Mieville, even if he’s drawing on more on fantasy. (Would China Mieville exist without Mervyn Peake?)

  119. Moderate Mom Avatar
    Moderate Mom

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    Pointing to the damage done by a Muslim extremist? What kind of liberal are you?

    And it is shocking to find that an Army base has lots and lots of guns. Who knew?

  120. Moderate Mom Avatar
    Moderate Mom

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    I do believe that particular massacre was committed by bomb, not with a gun.

  121. anjin-san Avatar
    anjin-san

    Hoag was terrific

    That one was a stone classic. A wonderfully imaginative work.

    I would add “Downward to the Earth”, “A Time of Changes”, and of course “Nighwings” to the list of Silverberg’s essential work from that period. Outstanding storytelling and commentary on the human condition.

    Check this out. It’s a one-off, as far as I know the author did nothing else of much significance. That being said, it’s one of the best of the best:

    http://www.amazon.com/Carve-Sky-Alexander-Jablokov/dp/038071521X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1314936136&sr=8-1

  122. michael reynolds Avatar
    michael reynolds

    @WR:
    Mieville is amazing. Sometimes I find him wandering in plot, but damn, what a great world builder, plus he’s good at character, he can write women, he can handle dialog. I don’t know if he’s sci fi or fantasy, but damn, he can write.

    You’re right about Silverberg. I don’t have the dates straight in my head but I think of him as half a generation after Asimov, Heinlein and Clarke. Terrific imagination and incredibly prolific. I bow before Silverberg.

    I’m embarrassed to admit that I’ve never read Delaney. Lately my reading is largely hijacked by blurb requests, so I’m reading a lot of YA. If you ever want to read some kick-ass YA fantasy/sci fi try Andrew Smith’s “The Marbury Lens.” That boy can write.

  123. ponce Avatar
    ponce

    A piquant mix of fascism and sex with younger women.

    Are we talking about Republicans over 50?

  124. anjin-san Avatar
    anjin-san

    I’m throwing George Turner out there. A later generation of writers… great stuff.

    http://www.amazon.com/Drowning-Towers-George-Turner/dp/038078601X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1314937860&sr=8-1

  125. ponce Avatar
    ponce

    I’m throwing George Turner out there.

    Vernor Vinge gets my vote.

  126. Ebenezer Arvigenius Avatar
    Ebenezer Arvigenius

    @Micheal

    Just to add to the de-rail: Female SF writers seem to be better at characters in general. I really revere McMaster Bujold for her verisimilitude and well-planned character interactions (and all that in what really amounts to Space Opera to boot). Unfortunately she doesn’t seem to do much SF lately.

    Tiptree and LeGuin have already been mentioned. I would add Sheri S. Tepper for emotionally apt “hardish” SF.

  127. samwide Avatar
    samwide

    @jan:

    Speaking to Jay:

    BTW, I like reading your posts, along with a hand-full of others, who seem to have a look at the state of this country through less partisan eyes.

    Seriously.

  128. samwide Avatar
    samwide

    On SF, I’ll add my favorites:

    Roger Zelazny, Lord of Light

    Clarke, The City and the Stars (Northrup Frye, who knew something about fabulists, thought very highly of that book.)

    Clarke, Childhood’s End (One of the most moving works of fiction I’ve ever read.)

  129. James Joyner Avatar
    James Joyner

    @john personna: That’s interesting and more than I knew about the weapons. I’m pretty sure it’s also more than the story author knew. “A Glock is a Glock.”

    My point goes beyond pedantic quibbling over model numbers and calibers. To some people, a gun is just a gun. And the fact that one nut shot went on a shooting spree with a handgun by a major manufacturer renders all by that manufacturer verboten. In Pima County, I’m guessing most people who saw that ad just thought, “Man, I’d like me a Glock!” Or, perhaps, “Another Glock.”

  130. john personna Avatar
    john personna

    @michael reynolds:

    I think there’s a strain of Asperger’s going through the sci fi community. A lot of times they just don’t quite get humans.

    I usually go to the library. They choose to have fiction, mystery, and science fiction sections. When I look at science fiction it is usually overrun with vampires. Interestingly there is good science fiction, but they often don’t label it such. They put it under “fiction.”

    I think a lot of crap lives under the genre badge, and we’d all be better off if it was just “fiction.” SciFi readers wouldn’t miss the good stuff, and they wouldn’t have ghettoized browsing.

    Oh, and when you take every good book idea and stretch it into a series, you end up with a lot of “this happened, and then this happened” filler. Serialization if the bane of SciFi. I thought Blackout was a pretty good book, but by All Clear the guy was just milkin’ it.

  131. WR Avatar
    WR

    @anjin-san: That does look intriguing. Thanks!

  132. ken Avatar
    ken

    I think if we allowed police more leeway in shooting people with guns we would have a lot less crime.

    As it is now folks with guns feel too free to carry them around in public. If they risked their lives each time they carried (to the extent that they were often times shot dead) we would have a lot less gun crime and a much safer society.

    Cops who shoot anyone with a gun should never be second guessed, imo.

  133. James Joyner Avatar
    James Joyner

    @ken: So, your solution to people lawfully carrying guns is a police state in which anyone with a badge simply murders whomever they please? This would eliminate “gun crime” only by changing the definition of “crime.” The reality would be a lot more dead innocents than we get now.

  134. jan Avatar
    jan

    An update:

    Media Controversy backfires

    The Pima County Republican Party’s controversial gun raffle fundraiser was such a success that they ended up raffling off another weapon. The notoriety fueled such demand, said interim Chairman Mike Shaw, not only did the raffle for the Glock pistol sell out, but they subsequently raffled a deer rifle as well.

    The model of Glock is not the same as the one Jared Lee Loughner used in the Jan. 8, rampage. The gun used by Loughner was a Glock 19. The weapon being raffled is a Glock 23.

    And, as an aside, with all those guns in Arizona compare the homicide rate with that of NYC.

    People in Arizona own guns. People in New York City do not understand. Arizona’s homicide rate in 2009 was 5.4 per 100,000 residents. New York City’s was 6.3.

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